Woolwich killing

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bumpnudger7, May 22, 2013.

  1. Agreed Snotty ,got it in one ! after the Cobra meet,the sound bite quotes,the photo calls, there is ,when push comes to shove zilch he or any legal org. can do. Much can be suggested by others but usually whatever is/was/suggested would not stand up in court .The public ire has been assuaged for the moment , a(potential catastrophic) crisis of confidence in this govt"s ability to deal with internal security affairs has been dealt with and ? life on the streets of Britain goes on,till the next time. Any Govt. pays attention ,in this country only when ,I have noticed, the public riot ,i.e. the poll tax riots almost brought down a govt and led to a prime minister being removed by her own party from leadership,not because they disagreed with the principle of said tax but because they feared de selection/re election , prior to that infamous London riot the Govt. had ignored all peaceful protests ,my point ,last post was /is only the public can/will bring about change, and as I perhaps previously said , no great change ever occurs without at least, civil unrest(unfortunately)
     
  2. Poptop2

    Poptop2 Moderator

    Thought i might post this up as a alternative viewpoint , remember i am very fair minded and hold no hidden agenda's about islam , race crede or colour .

    There is a security guard at work from pakistan ,he is early to mid 30s always quite chatty, quite intelligent one of the lads almost and we often chat about religion or topical subjects , on Saturday i asked him what he thought of the killing and the conversation went like this .

    Me , did you see all that on the news about that awful killing .

    Him - i never watch the news so i don't know what you're on about

    Me , what did they not say anything about it at the mosque ?

    Him , i haven't been this week !

    Me , oh that's unusual i thought you went every day ?

    Him - looking sheepish - No mate , not all the time !

    Me , oh i thought you did my mistake !

    Him - no reply

    Me , Killing a soldier on the streets in the name of religion that is wrong don't you think ?

    Him , what about the women and children he kills ?

    Me , it is awful these things happen in war , it's wrong , war is wrong i have never agreed with war !

    Him , why are your country there killing innocent women and children ?

    Me , they say they are protecting us from terror but i think it is time to leave now we have done what they said they wanted to do and installed a proper government .

    Him , what about them being called hero's , how can you call people who kill woman and children hero's ?

    Him , this government is wrong we need to get rid of all of them !

    Me , you can't trust any government no matter who they are but at least we can elect a new one here unlike some country's .

    Him , they tried to entice that man into mi5 .

    Me , i thought you knew nothing about it ?

    Him , i just read something this morning

    Me , i think it's all wrong no one should ever kill anyone

    Him , my religion says no one should take a life unless someone is threatening your life .

    Me , self defence ?

    Him ,yes !

    Me , fair point , so why are people being killed in the name of religion ?

    Him , how do yo know it is not propaganda by your government ?

    Me , same way as you don't know the women and children killings aren't propaganda by Al qaeda , we don't .

    Him , that is a fact , we know these are facts , your government always lie's .

    Me , my government , last week you said we are all one country and you were English and felt English , is it not your government too ?

    Him , my government don't cheat and lie and send soldiers to kill women and children !

    Me , thanks for confusing me , i have to go now as i have a truck to drive .

    Him , see you mate , nice talking to you again .

    i thought about this conversation all day yesterday and some of today , it left me feeling uneasy as this guy seemed so run of the mill last week , yet so different on Saturday !
     
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  3. A general observation too. It sounds like he's begun the path to being radicalised, especially with the language, the continual reaffirming of women and children being killed and the refusal to countenance any of your valid criticisms.
     
  4. Poptop2

    Poptop2 Moderator

    i went in last week and he was in the security hut looking at his laptop , i knocked the door and he suddenly closed the laptop sharpish and panicked , i thought he must have been looking at porn or something !
     
  5. Malc don't think too much into it or it will mess your head up.
     
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  6. Moons

    Moons Moderator

    I hate to say it, but non combatants like women and children are a consequence of war, not usually the main target (though women suicide bomber's are not unheard of, and neither is using children as a come on in ambushes). Targeting an unarmed soldier with a car in the street in South West London is hardly a battlezone - but then guerilla war is just that, dirty. A friend of mine had to end some special needs kid who'd been told to go and open the back of an APC on patrol by the brave Warriors who only kill armed equals.

    I can't comment directly on the guy - to be fair maybe he is feeling defensive, afterall the killing was in the name of his religion no matter what his personal views are - if I were him I'm unsure what sort of answers I'd give, though I'd be feeling a little squiffly bum over it all standing in the meddle of the UK.

    I'd also observe he is a prime target - tidy enough intelligence, Marmite job with bad pay and long hours (I've been a security guard) and too much time to think.

    Having said that - let's not get all Red's under the Bed about this - most of our homegrown 'angry young men' expound guns and violence with no obvious agenda either.
     
    Poptop2 likes this.
  7. Maybe he should go to the mosque more - it doesn't say that
     
  8. Prime Minister Julia Gillard- Australia:

    Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..

    Separately, Gillard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying she supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:

    'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It.
    I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

    'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

    'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society .... Learn the language!'

    'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

    'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

    'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.' 'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'


     
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  9. Baysearcher

    Baysearcher [secret moderator]

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  10.  
  11. Terrordales

    Terrordales Nightshift Admin

    I have to agree with Baysearcher, I live in Australia & if that had been in a speech I can assure you it would have been on every front page & every shock jock would suddenly have decided that Julia was the best thing since sliced bread.
     
  12. As far as I am aware it has been attributed, over the years, to Gillard, Rudd and Howard - I think it might be a rework and misquote of something Howard once said. It's certainly nothing remotely close to an actual transcript.
     
  13. Terrordales

    Terrordales Nightshift Admin

    Paley, it is a misquote of John Howard. Neither Rudd or Gillard would say anything like that.
    John Howard our version of Margaret Thatcher :eek:
     
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  14. It's his handbag that worries us :eek:
     
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  15. Just spoke to a mate who's serving and stationed near woolwich. Interesting speaking to him about it. He told me the barracks QRF were not allowed to deploy when they heard of what was going on!
     
  16. This would be correct

    The rules of engagment are for the security of the barracks and not applicable in civvy street even though it was very close to the barracks
    Also the defence of the barracks is more important than the single soldier outside of the barracks

    It could have been a diversion tactic to allow a larger attack to take place on the barracks
     
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  17. Outside of the wire we (serving military) have no more jurisdiction than as a civilian.
     
    paradox likes this.
  18. I like this viewpoint!


    The best comment we came across on the killing of a soldier, Lee Rigby, at Woolwich last week was not from any politician, nor ideologue, nor media commentator, nor religious leader, but from a blog by Russell Brand. Below, without unnecessary comment or links, we reproduce this ‘essay’ as it stands. It deserves to be publicised widely, for Brand – like whistleblower Bradley Manning – reminds us all of our humanity. It is the antithesis of those who preach hate, whether religious hate, or from other kinds of fundamentalists, or from racists.

    Woolwich

    The news cycle moves so quickly now that often we learn of an event through other people’s reaction to it. So it was when I arrived in Los Angeles to find my twitter feed contorted with posts of fear and confusion.

    I caught up with the sad malice in Woolwich and felt compelled to tweet in casual defense of the Muslim community who were being haphazardly condemned by a few people on my time line. Perhaps a bit glibly (but what isn’t glib in 140 characters) I put “That bloke is a nut. A nut who happens to be Muslim. Blaming Muslims for this is like blaming Hitler’s moustache for the Holocaust”.

    As an analogy it is imperfect but I was frightened by how negative and incendiary the mood felt and I rushed. I’m not proposing we sit around trying to summons up cute analogies when Lee Rigby has lost his life in horrific circumstances I simply feel that it is important that our reaction is measured. Something about the arbitrary brutality, the humdrum high-street setting, the cool rhetoric of the blood stained murderer evoke a powerful and inherently irrational response. When I first heard the word “beheading” I felt the atavistic grumble that we all feel. This is inhumane, taboo, not a result of passion but of malice, ritualistic. “If this is happening to guiltless men on our streets it could happen to me” I thought.

    Then I watched the mobile phone clip. In spite of his dispassionate intoning the subject is not rational, of course he’s not rational, he’s just murdered a stranger in the street, he says, because of a book.

    In my view that man is severely mentally ill and has found a convenient conduit for his insanity, in this case the Quran. In the case of another mentally ill and desperate man, Mark Chapman, it was A Catcher In The Rye. This was the nominated text for his rationalisation of the murder of John Lennon. I’ve read that book and I’ve read some of the Quran and nothing in either of them has compelled me to do violence. Perhaps this is because I lack the other necessary ingredients for extreme anti social behaviour; mental illness and isolation; either economic, social or both.

    After my Hitler tweet I got involved in a bit of back and forth with a few people who said stuff like “the murderer said himself he did it for Islam”. Although I wouldn’t dismiss what he’s saying entirely I think he forfeited the right to have his views received unthinkingly when he murdered a stranger in the street. Someone else regarding my tweet said “Hitler’s moustache didn’t invent an ideology that sanctions murder”. That is thankfully true but Islam when practiced by normal people is not an advocacy for violence. “People all over the world are killing in the name of Islam” someone added. This is the most tricky bit to understand. What I think is that all over our country, all over our planet there are huge numbers of people who feel alienated and sometimes victimised by the privileged and the powerful, whether that’s rich people, powerful corporations or occupying nations. They feel that their interests are not being represented and, in many cases, know that their friends and families are being murdered by foreign soldiers. I suppose people like that may look to their indigenous theology for validation and to sanctify their, to some degree understandable, feelings of rage.

    Comparable, I suppose to the way that homophobes feel a prejudicial pang in their tummies then look to the bible to see if there’s anything in there to justify it. There is, a piddling little bit in Leviticus. The main narrative thrust of The Bible though, like most spiritual texts, including the Quran is; be nice to each other because we’re all the same.

    When some football fans smash up shops and beat each other up that isn’t because of football or football clubs. It’s because loads of white, working class men have been culturally neglected and their powerful tribal instincts end up getting sloshed about in riotous lager carnivals. I love football, I love West Ham, I’ve never been involved in football violence because I don’t feel that it’s my only access to social power. Also I’m not that hard and I’m worried I’d get my head kicked in down the New Den.

    What the English Defence League and other angry, confused people are doing and advocating now, violence against mosques, Muslims, proliferation of hateful rhetoric is exactly what that poor, sick, murderous man, blood soaked on a peaceful street, was hoping for in his desperate, muddled mind.

    The extremists on both sides have a shared agenda; cause division, distrust, anger and violence. Both sides have the same intention. We cannot allow them to distort our perception.

    The establishment too is relatively happy when different groups of desperate people point the finger at each other because it prevents blame being correctly directed at them. Whenever we are looking for the solution to a problem we must identify who has power. By power I mean influence and money. The answer is not for us to move further from one another, crouched in opposing fortresses constructed from vindictive words. We need now to move closer to one another, to understand one another. If we can take anything heartening from this dreadful attack it is of course the actions of the three women, it’s always women, that boldly guarded Lee Rigby’s body as he lay needlessly murdered. These women looked beyond the fear and chaos and desperation and attuned instead to a higher code. One of virtue, integrity and strength.

    To truly demonstrate defiance in the face of this sad violence, we must be loving and compassionate to one another. Let’s look beyond our superficial and fleeting differences. The murderers want angry patriots to desecrate mosques and perpetuate violence. How futile their actions seem if we instead leave flowers at each other’s places of worship. Let’s reach out in the spirit of love and humanity and connect to one another, perhaps we will then see what is really behind this conflict, this division, this hatred and make that our focus.

    Russell Brand
     
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  19. Suprisingly ,that makes a lot of sense (2 me)
     
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  20. Unsurprisingly he hasn't read the quran
     
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