Advice appreciated, intake valve on number 2 cylinder stuck open

I know it well. Goes on for ever. The M40 going towards London near Watlington is another drag! If you don’t get a good run at it you’re in for a long haul!

 

Interesting problems..

The exhaust seat must get extremely hot,
does it expand more than the head material to keep it in place,
Not enough cooling..?

Or is the head material the problem,
Not a problem on millions of water cooled engines

 

I'm not a metalurgist, but my understanding is the alloy head expands more/faster than the steel valve seat, so in the extreme it drops out

Has the OP identified the issue yet?

 

Mineral or synthetic isn't particularly important, the amount of ZDDP is. Duckhams Classic 20w-50 is okay, in the UK Millers Classic 15w-40 probably better in the winter. I use Motul Classic 2100 15w-50 all year round.
Why people recommend and use SAE30 when multi-grade oils have been available for over 50 years is a mystery.

 

Suddenly all the 'what oil?' posts aren't so funny anymore!!

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Oil is NOT the problem , neither are long hills on the M25...

Guys just been on a fantastic adventure which many on here just dream about - 6,000 miles up hill and down dale ending with driving through Europe at 40* plus temperatures . Sounds like it's dropped a valve seat but that's absolutely nothing to do with zinc content of the oil or long hills on the M25 . It just got very hot and cried enough but got them back which to me is the overriding fact ....
How good was the engine when he set off ??
Doesn't matter to me - he had the balls to do it so chapeau Rich , well done

Rant over

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Agreed Chris. But were just chatting and went off topic a bit that’s all. My fault soz! And of course well done to Rich…amazing adventure!

 

If I may say something that I have learnt through asking many, many questions, on a few different sites, over the last few months of building, then re building my engine, due to ‘errors’, I too was interested in oil grades and came across a guys explanation on old oils and newer ones.
It goes a little like this.
A mineral SAE 30 type oil, is more purer, than newer oils with detergents, etc, thus carbon deposits arnt suspended in it, and fall to the bottom of the engine,eventually, and is all wiped off every other oil change, by taking the sump plate off, and strainer out, and cleaning them out.
But a oil like a newer oil, with additives, suspends the burnt gunk and although it does pretty much the same, it works better in a full flow system with a spin of type paper element filter, which cleans the oil for longer than it falling to the bottom.
And even WITH new oil technologies, the engines were still designed like they are to run on what they did…
Good effort on a long trip, too..

 

I came across a blog by a guy who basically measures oils in a particular way to measure them.
And that ZDDP has been superseded by other additives in modern oils


https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/


I bring the information for review. An long interesting set of observations.

 

As I also need some bodywork done on my rear quarter (that we thought we could get away without during my resto, DOH!) I've decided to get the bus trucked up to my son's body shop (so he can do my rear quarter and paint the engine bay while I work on the engine out of the bus)
After reading all the discussion and advice, I've decided to go to Morris Golden Film 20w-50 which I'm hoping gives me the best of both worlds. ;-)

 

I'll just say anyone who knows about oil will disagree with most of that.

 

That’s fine. After reading mikes link, there was no mention about it, either. (Took me a while to get through). Found this though.

 

No apologies required mate , the off piste wanderings are par for the course on here but to anyone looking for answers and not too familiar with old Vans it just clouds the issue !
The issue isn't wrong oil or slogging ascents on the M25 , it was an unknown engine that came with the van and other than servicing has had not even been out under his ownership so very much an unknown quantity - whatever occurred could have happened pulling out of the drive ...

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The oil was a side topic on general engine health. We've plenty "big end gone" threads here in the past the were straight 30 oil related. Van engines pretty much live under load, particularly 1600s trying to keep up with today's traffic speeds. If you don't think that advice worth anything to the future health of the OP's engine once he's fixed the head I don't know how to respond. To see it making you angry and denouncing it as useless to future readers @Lasty is even more puzzling.

But whatever, it's just advice, take it or leave it.

 

I agree with the article you quoted but I don't agree with your own comments. Since you're an inquisitive kind of guy you might find this article by John Maher (JMR) interesting.
Over the past 10 years or so there have been countless stories of high performance aircooled VW engines experiencing premature camshaft failure. It has been and continues to be a regular discussion topic on the various VW internet forums. Why does it happen and what can you do to prevent it?


Left: good condition high mileage lifter
Right: Badly pitted low mileage lifter

Camshaft failure early in the life of a VW performance engine is no fun. Replacing the cam and followers requires a complete teardown of the engine. Cast iron particles from the cam lobes circulate through the entire oil system, damaging bearings and possibly the crank journals, cylinder walls and piston rings. Some owners have been unfortunate enough to go through this cycle several times with the same engine, having covered less than a few hundred miles in the process. A variety of solutions have been offered by hundreds of forum contributors. Avoid ‘Brand X’ cams… use ‘Brand Y’ lifters… have the lifters specially coated… you must use ‘Brand Z’ cams with ‘Brand X’ lifters… use super-expensive unobtainable ceramic lifters… etc… etc.

Confused? It gets worse. There are the follow-up posts where the magical combination that worked so well for one person results in yet another flat cam for somebody else – especially frustrating if the recommended ‘solution’ involved considerable expenditure on super trick parts and special coatings. Suddenly, building a high performance engine that might make it to the 1000-mile mark without requiring a major overhaul was looking like a game of Russian Roulette.

When the flat cam stories first started filtering through many years ago I was naturally concerned. Nobody wants to put a lot of time and effort into building an engine only for it all to go pear-shaped early in its life. I was already operating a careful camshaft break-in routine on all my engine builds and as far as cam failure was concerned, I’d only seen it happen twice over a period of several years. In both instances they were high lift, long duration race cams. I put the failures down to race oriented wear and tear. As time went by the scare stories increased. I started to see an increase in pitted cam followers on some race and street/strip engines. Sometimes one or more followers would look rough, although the cam lobes generally checked out OK.

Despite people pointing the finger of blame at the camshaft companies and lifter manufacturers, I couldn’t find any evidence the suppliers had changed materials, manufacturing methods or final processing. The answer had to lie elsewhere. Also, the issue hasn’t been isolated to the VW community. Owners of flat tappet V8 engines were experiencing the same problems. There had to be some connection between the two and V8 owners weren’t using VW cams or lifters. It had to be something else….

An engine’s valvetrain converts circular motion (rotating camshaft), into a linear motion (opening and closing valves) via the followers, pushrods and rocker arms. Modern production engines have no pushrods, often use an overhead cam design, or low-friction roller lifters and may have billet steel cams as opposed to the VW’s pushrod, flat-tappet and cast iron cam combination.
Note: the V8 guys experiencing the same problems had essentially the same flat tappet valvetrain design as the VW. V8s equipped with more expensive roller lifters and billet cams had no issues.


The cam lobe wipes across most of the lifter’s diameter, creating high shear loads

Valve spring pressure ensures the follower tracks the cam lobe at all times. This creates a high shear load between cam lobe and follower, wiping and squeezing the oil from between the two parts. In a typical performance engine, fitted with high lift cam and increased spring force, maintaining this protective layer is critical if the cam and followers are to survive.

The science bit
ZDDP (zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate) is the ingredient capable of providing the necessary protection. ZDDP is attracted to a cast iron cam lobe by heat and friction and forms a protective layer, preventing cam lobes and followers coming into direct metal-to-metal contact with each other. Until recently the majority of automotive engine oils contained adequate quantities of ZDDP to provide the protection our VW cams and followers need to survive (approx 0.12%by volume). The drive towards cleaner emissions, improved fuel economy via low viscosity oils (e.g. 0w30, 5w30), and the desire for longer drain intervals spelled the end for ZDDP as far as modern car manufacturers are concerned. The phosphorous content of ZDDP and its associated ash content has a detrimental effect on the catalytic converters fitted to all new petrol-engined cars. Consequently ZDDP levels were reduced and new replacement additives were incorporated in accordance with requirements dictated by the American Petroleum Institute (API) – the oil manufacturers’ governin

The new oil formulation doesn’t present a problem for brand new production cars where manufacturers adopt cam and valvetrain designs compatible with the new oil recipe but it doesn’t provide sufficient protection for an air-cooled VW engine where the surface hardness of the cam and followers isn’t compatible with reduced ZDDP content or newer ZDDP replacements.

In the search for oils still formulated with ZDDP, some engine builders have switched to brands designed for use in diesel engines. However, newer diesel engines are now being fitted with specially designed catalysts and as a result, ZDDP is also being withdrawn from diesel oils. Some motorcycle oils have ZDDP at sufficient levels for VW protection but include additives designed for use with wet clutch systems – not a requirement for an air-cooled VW engine.

Fortunately it’s not all bad news. Suitable oils are available from specialist suppliers. In the course of my research I had several long conversations with the people at Millers Oils, an oil company based in the UK. All oils marketed under their ‘Motorsport’ and ‘Classic’ brand names contain sufficient quantities of ZDDP for flat tappet engines, including the air-cooled VW. Neither range is targeted for use in current production vehicles and therefore has no need to comply with the new API legislation.


Millers range of Motorsport oils contain sufficient quantities of ZDDP to protect high performance flat tappet VW valvetrains

For several years I’ve been using ZDDP enriched oils from the Millers Motorsport range: a mineral oil for break-in and then switching to a full synthetic for full load testing. Their Competition Running-In Oil (CRO-10W40) is a mineral oil, formulated with a sophisticated additive package to provide full protection for all highly stressed components (such as cam and followers) but also allowing the optimum bedding in process for piston rings and cylinder bores. CRO is rated for 500 miles on the road or five hours on the engine dyno when following a specific break-in process.

 

I'll leave it thanks, the OP asked for answers as to why his valve was stuck down , either a dropped valve seat or stuck valve is the answer - nothing else is really relevant in my 'umble opinion . Doesn't get me angry but if you ask a question it gets 20 different answers , 90% being internet based tosh . That's what I find frustrating ....

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The OP was given the answer in the first half dozen posts and it's obvious that if the valve is stuck open something is stopping it closing. But why might it have dropped a seat or be seized in the guide?

Whether it's relevant or not, using the wrong oil, especially for the high temperature experienced, is significant and apparently not everybody knows that - based on my knowledge of oil before the internet was invented.

 

He also asked the oil type question and got an answer to that as well.

 

Talking to a lad at Techenders ,if i remember right his name was Andyv but i may have got that wrong , he said a similar thing to you , having just got home after an extensive tour to discover a valve guide had come loose and was rattling in his cylinder head .
He also had some 2L pistons for sale (brand new) dont think he will mind me posting it on here