In or Out

What are the odds on another Scottish Referendum if we leave?

 

100% . So the canny Scots should vote to leave even if it's not what they want so as to get their own independence referendum again, they will then rejoin the E.U as an Independent Scotland. WIN WIN I reckon

 

Interesting thought. Another frontier to be manned.

 

Exactly. Look at news footage of the so called refugees, where are the women and children?

 

Well, now that we are on page 10 and the politicians are going to spend the next four months slagging each other off all over the media, there is going to be no peace until it's all over. And even then, if say 60% of people voted out, Cameron will say it's not a big enough majority and it was only a referendum in the first place, so there won't be any change.

I know how I'm going to vote, so I am retiring from this thread as, quite frankly, I have better things to do with my time!

Adios amigos! Enjoy the bickering!

 

Bye, have a nice day.

 

The infrastructure is already there, just needs a little TLC, nothing beyond the collective skills of the Late Bay…….. The Roman’s did the hard work!

 

in it's most simplified form, the EU is, as the name suggests, a union; an alliance between 'individuals' for mutual benefit. The individuals in this case are 'nation states'. To establish a level playing field for fair and 'free' trade to take place, members must comply with specific regulations concerning the way in which goods and services are produced, notably: working conditions, environmental factors, animal welfare and safe practices (ie what substances are permissible in foodstuffs, drugs, etc.)
Proper adherence to the above protocols results in a net benefit, to both the manufacturers and consumers of the goods and services exchanged.
Non-adherence results in unfair working conditions and exploitation of the work force, environmental degradation (much of which is trans-national and has far reaching consequences for everybody), inhumane treatment of animals, and products of dubious quality (in some cases, contaminated foodstuffs).
Ethically, there is no argument: Is it fair for a manufacturer to produce goods cheaper than their competitiors if by doing so, it creates untold pollution?
Is it fair for a company to be able to sell it's trainers at half the price, because the work force comprises child labour, toiling for a pittance in atrocious conditions? Or a farmer to triple his yield by pumping his beef herd with masses of steroids and hormones?...Clearly not...hence the need to regulate. The EU is by no means perfect, and is open to abuse, but without such protocols, we (the uninformed consumer) would be in a much worse state IMO.
As the number of cohorts increases, so does the need for greater regulation; this, I believe, is what creates the dissatisfaction and tension between individual members, not the raison d'etre for a union in the first place.

Of course, the UK could break free from this union and establish it's own working practices, environmental legislation, welfare rights and quality standards, but who's to say we could produce goods and services at a price that would sell at the market, without compromising any or all of the above? Remember, the concept is to establish free and 'fair' trade for mutual benefit....
We, as a nation are not self-sufficient; we've always relied on trade for our continued existence...belonging to a group of trading nations with similar ethical, moral and social principles makes common sense to me

 

Brussels to Strasbourg and back again ...the annual move of the EU Parliament Any of our politicians bothered to mention the huge cost of this ridiculous exercise to us the electorate? Small wonder the auditors have been unable to sign off the accounts for the past few years, the scope for fraud is immense. Like many others I voted for the Common Market, level playing field etc. but the baby has turned into a greedy self serving adult.

 

I'm personally for staying in, the area I live in gets a lot more back from Europe than it puts in per head, the same with any run down area really, you take a 20 minute drive through places like the South Wales Valleys and you'll see the amount of projects, child welfare groups, women refuges, needle exchange programmes, food banks etc that are kept going by European Funding. I get that if you live in a more prosperous area, with good employment it looks like a bad deal financially. Then theres the amount of EU funded jobs throughout the UK that will go.

I've always been a socialist type of bloke, we're all in this together, and we need to look after our slowest runners, not just the rich elite.

Theres an argument that if we stop paying into Europe, we have more money to spend in the UK, the problem there is, from experience we all know that means 80% more money for London and the rest of us fighting over the scraps, the further away you are the less you get, Europe at least looks at who needs it most.

Then you have things like the working week, EU law means you can work more than 48 hours a week without overtime, not hard to see why Tesco want out, then they can make 30% of their staff redundant and tell the rest they have to do 15 hours extra a week for free or go, having just seen 30% of others go, they'd have to grin and bear it.

The main worry I have is though, that so many people, including a lot in this discussion seem to think its just about immigration, theres a lot more to it than that, but the whole UKip has got people so worked up over something thats not really that big a deal that people will vote out of fear.

Theres 2.5 million UK citizens living and working in Europe, if they all come back its gonna effect things a damn site more than immigrants who may not even be entitled to anything.

It reminds me of something I read on Tweeter a few years back:

"A Banker and Worker and an Immigrant are all sat in a room, on the table in front of them is a plate with 12 biscuits, the Banker reaches over, takes 11 biscuits and whispers to the Worker, 'watch out for that immigrant, he's after your biscuit".

Its funny, but it has worked so well that most people are *******ed off and don't even realise they are *******ed off with the wrong group.

Whats interesting and will be more so as time goes on is, the main group of Tories want in, whilst the Tory press want out, it could change the political landscape for years.

 

why are they allowed to vote in UK elections when they no longer live here?

 

Well said Al.

 

So what your trying to tell us is that the minimum and living wage would disappear. Absolute nonsense.

Its not immigration, amongst other things its about sovereignty and being able to take back control from unelected EU Bureaucrats. The immigration and racist card is the one the left will continue play.

I dont understand how/why we will have 2.5 million people suddenly coming back.

 

I'm not trying to tell you anything, the 48hour week is a European law, I have yet to see anyone saying what laws they will keep and loose, if its European law and we're no longer part of Europe, UK companies won't have to abide by it, I'm not very legally minded, but if a European Law was to be picked and adopted surely it would still then have to go through parliament and the Lords like any other? Or is there some contingency plan? That would then go for all other EU laws we currently follow. You then have to trust Parliament and the Lords not to keep the ones that suit those in power at the expense of the rest.

Why would 2.5 million people suddenly come back?
They are granted working status as part of Europe, I haven't seen anyone say what that status will be if we leave, they would at least need Work Permits, which may be hard to get with the current political feeling towards migrant workforces, I doubt all 2.5 million would get to stay.

The point I'm making is, no-one knows, there has yet to be enough information on what happens after if we leave, in this country and in the EU. If its OK to list un-proven ideals about leaving why is it wrong to point out un-proven fears if we do?

I personally don't believe this rose coloured glasses idea that we'll get to keep all the good, and get rid of the of all the bad and Europe will carry on being nice and chummy if we leave, things will be different, thats for certain.

 

Best odds for OUT 21/10. Best odds IN 5/2 on. Are the bookies wrong, or is TLB more representative of the general public?

 

I think it's time we ditched the Left/Right narrative because it serves to obfuscate the argument.

 

It's 1 million anyway and you're right.