Discussion in 'Mech Tech' started by Poptop2, Jun 22, 2013.

  1. Poptop2

    Poptop2 Moderator

    That really is a good saving Zeb! What sort of mileage do you do and how long have you had it fitted?
  2. Moons

    Moons Moderator

    Over 2000 miles my diesel TT has saved me around £130 over my old Petrol one.

    So in one year I expect to save maybe £780.

    For doing nothing other than sitting in it and driving it - no void warranty, no making insurance aware, no getting systems checked, no arseing about finding garages that sell the stuff.
  3. And a big thanks for paying my taxes for me :thumbsup:
  4. Its been on lpg about 18k miles, just over 3 years. About 10p a mile saving.
  5. Moons

    Moons Moderator

    Are you saying that Petrol/Diesel cars somehow subsidises LPG in terms of Tax? How?

    I'd agree that it might in terms of road tax, that's presuming you have the vehicle tested and deemed duel fuel - anyone done that yet?

    Incidentally - I own shares in BP and Shell - thank you for paying my dividends.
  6. Fuel tax is just another tax into the Treasury kitty, the more other people pay, the less I have to :)

    I own loads of BP shares, but what's that got to do with anything?

    Ref road tax, I think there was a time when there was a big reduction for "dual fuel" vehicles. Our previous 2 vehicles were converted too late for such tax benefits. The car we've just bought was converted and registered just before the required 18 months, but the road tax saving is now just £10 pa. It's the fuel itself where the big savings come in to play.
  7. Moons

    Moons Moderator

    Weird understanding of economics....I use Diesel which is taxed at say 70%. You use LPG which is taxed at say 35%. The treasury makes say £1million pounds a year from us both.

    But hold on - my car does more MPG - thus I use fewer gallons. Whilst I pay less in net Tax (for using fewer gallons) you don't conversely pay more do you? There is no relationship between my consumption and yours in terms of tax, unless as stated, Petrol/Diesel taxes are kept high to directly subsidise LPG's lower tax threshold.

    Can you imagine the bun fight were that to be proven?

    Well - if you own a company that sells product X, and product X's price goes up for everyone - then whilst you have to pay more for product X, the profit of the company that makes it goes up, as a shareholder, you own a share of that profit do you not - therefore you benefit, rather than everyone else, who simply pays more.

    As stated numerous times - my issue with LPG isn't the notion that it's cheaper - it's the annoying non science behind the industries claims as to how cheap it actually is. Most of the time the figures defies physics, but we ignore that because the argument only rages around monetary value.

    Incidentally - as indeed the treasury sees less net income, mainly from lower taxation on more efficient cars, and given that LPG is being used increasingly in refrigeration and propellants - a product that was seen as waste is in increasing demand, and probably on the tax radar.
  8. "Man-made CO2 emissions are causing the death of the planet, this is a well-proven fact agreed by all scientists". Whether you believe in such drivel mantra is irrelevent, because LPG is a "green" fuel, which EU governments support with huge tax breaks.

    I'm just taking advantage of this, and saving a huge load of CASH in doing so. About £1000 per year for me, a total of £1800 for Zebedee.......... ;)
  9. propane is cheaper to produce than conventional oil based fuels, so the market price looks set to be more favourable compared to petrol and diesel prices. Add to this the relatively clean burn, reduced emissions and well-established technology to convert existing vehicles, it comes down to incentivisation....for both private owners, and in particular, fleet operators. At present, the infrastructure isn't in place, nor is there any desire for the usual suspects to have their exorbitantly huge profit margins curtailed by cheaper alternatives....governments are in the pockets of Petrochemical conglomerates and energy suppliers in general....no one wants to be in the driving seat when they turn the gas off, or the lights go out....so once again, it's a notional commitment to greener energy....same goes for Hydrogen fuel cell technology.

    Never mind....we can all charge our electric cars on juice from Nuclear Power plants owned by a Chinese Oligarchy with an atrocious safety record....:rolleyes:
  10. Moons

    Moons Moderator

    Imagine how much you would save if the vehicle was fuel efficient in the first place. Mine is saving me around the £780 mark, I don't need to recover the cost of LPG kit's or their upkeep.

    I take it by well established you mean 'in existence' not 'proven to be good'. Pretty much every install you read about has 'teething issues' and then needs periodic recalibration - unless it's on some dreadful old tug that does 15 to the gallon in the first place.

    This is my point - both Vauxhall and Ford sold LPG converted cars in this country at the turn of the century, then withdrew them as the Vauxhall ones started to develop crank wear issues. If you search ebay and autotrader, extremely few of these cars survive - why?

    I'd venture it's this simple - Petrol and LPG have different burn rates and different characteristics - making a domestic low capacity engine capable of running both has proven beyond the realm of most manufacturers.

    Couple this with more recent engines being more efficient again (through tighter tolerances) and wamming some extra fuel injectors onto the side of inlet tracks that weren't designed for them looks like a recipe for fun.

    I'm not an expert - but my understanding is that LPG is a by product of processing Crude Oil - you don't get one without the other, plus lets face facts, with diesel their merely pick the twigs and leaves out of it and ship it :)
  11. it comes down to what technology is in place, or is about to come on line....Government policy reflects current manufacturer's standing relative to competitors:

    A great example of this was Ford's 'lean burn' Technology....remember that? At the time, there was a big argument as to which technology should be adopted across the board....either Lean Burn or Catalytic conversion.....European car manufacturers were all out for CAT as Seat, VW, Peugeot & Citroen were up and running....in the UK, the government were backing Lean burn as Ford had gone down this route......when CAT was looking the most likely, the UK government delayed accepting the EU legislation on emissions to allow Ford (and the associated domestic vote) to catch up....
    With hindsight, the Lean Burn engine should have been the way to go............ unless you had shares in Platinum mining companies

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