Ignition 123 Bulk buy (vw Jim facebook)

I think he's extolling the virtues of the megajolt...

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Megajolt
Sounds like a Transformer - which is what I was thinking my van might end up being, what with all the chasing of upgrade after upgrade.


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Teams up with Megasquirt FI .. nice.. maybe on the next build..

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Just ordered the bells n whistles one...
Plus more...1300 euros later...renovation is expensive !

 

The wife’ll kill you

 

Jolt and Squirt would be amazing, but Jolt on it’s own doesn’t make sense - a programmable 123 will do much the same.

Potentially great to have your engine fully “managed”, but faaar too complicated for most folk.

Worth noting that the last (Mexican?) Beetles did have injection and full Digifant engine management on the type 1s.

 

just told her....wasn’t happy but I said , just think how nice it’s going to be when it’s done ...
No more smelly bus that leaks in water and it will have sliding windows in the back too..
And a cool app...
And new carpets....
New door cards that don’t flap about too..
She just smiled and said ok...

 

Well played

 

sliding windows in the back are a great improvement.

 

Does away with the dizzy drive and uses crank fire

 

This 123 info all got posted on a gearbox thread, i've copied it here to keep 123 info in one place

zedders said:

I'm sure it is. Like a 123 my half Scots blood struggles with justification sometimes.

paulcalf said:

I've been trying to justify a 123 to myself, but managed to un convince myself of my 'need' after reading some samba threads

snotty said:

What are they ranting about?

Zedders said:

Nothing short of crank timed is acceptable to some of the sambanista. They'll knock anything that uses the distributor drive and they are right for a given value of right.


snotty said:

I stopped looking at the Samba long ago. It had turned very...strange.

Mark Darby said:

I find it very impersonal. I've found it useful when someone has post a link to a tekky bit though. Like that fuel sender thread Zedders pointed out the other day. Ace info if I'm going to start rewinding these things.

snotty said:

I migrated to Itinerant Aircooled...then that became even weirder...


zedders : Yes...and no. It's not like here, humour is rare. I like the depths they dive into the nitty gritty though. Better for reading than joining in, I use google to search it.


snotty said: ↑

What are they ranting about?

paulcalf said:

something about timing jumping about/only being accurate to within 5 degrees, whereas 009 are accurate to 2 degrees.

That is a poorly written summary by me!

snotty said:

That makes no sense. The timing should be rock-solid. The “accuracy” will depend on how they’ve set it up.

Odd.

Paulcalf: as i say, probably my sumarry that makes no sense

OP: sorry for thread hijack

@snotty i don't understand these things, but this info was enough to make me consider that I don't real need one

AlstrupSun Jun 19, 2016 1:47 am

I/we have tried both the 123 and the 123tune. The bluetooth has the same internals. They all suffer from the same flaws, unless it has been rectified within the last 6-7 months, which I doubt. - The problem with the thing is that they have a "selfthinking" ignition contoller built in the software, which moves the timing around to steady the engine rpm at idle and supposidly it should even out as you increase rpm. The fact is that the ignition controller makes the engine run worse at idle and the "adjuster" keeps moving the timing around at high rpm too. That results in you having to back the timing off 2-3 degrees from perfect because the "ignition window" is 4-5 degrees instead of maybe 2 to 3 at worst on a decent distributor. 2 degrees off perfect timing is somewhere between 4 & 10 hp on a medium size medium tune engine.

Like I wrote earlier, it is an improvement on most older British cars, because their distributors are generally very sloppy. I would never use one on an Alfa Romeo or similar cars because their distributors are usually good to begin with.

We had a Triumph TR6 in once, where we tried stock, then a 123, then a Megajolt ignition. with the stock distributor we pulled 189 hp and we had serius detonation at 6300 rpm. With the 123 we gained 6 hp to 195 hp and better midrange torque and no noticeable detonation at 6500 (rpm limt) Then we installed the Megajolt and was able to go right up to the limit. The engine wanted more fuel too and we gained 20 Nm torque at 2500 slightly decending to 10 Nm better peak, and 202 hp @ 6100 rpm.

On the last ACVW I had my fingers in, which was a 2165 I managed to go from 164 hp @ 5900 to 169 hp @ 6100 just by swopping from a 123tune to a simple Pertronix billet. But of course I had to get my fingers dirty :roll:


AlstrupTue Jun 21, 2016 9:18 am

donnmon wrote:

They say there is no 'idle stabilser' on the 123Tune and the variable dwell timing is designed to keep the coil current at or around 3.4A but should not affect the timing events.


The variable dwell will affect idle rpm. It will also affect emissions. That is a minor in our world, but noticeable nevertheless.

donnmon wrote:

What I will say is that I like the product, in my opinion it is not designed or (to my knowledge) generally marketed as a performance product but it works for me at least.


There are some nice things about the 123Tune that are of assistance to those without access to tuning equipment or expertise. It is pretty much plug and play which I guess works works well for those that don't want to get their fingers dirty. I get that it is expensive but then I don't have to pay those kind of prices.


That is exactly the buyer segment they are going for, and with great luck it seems. If the goal is to get ones engine to run decent, then I´m sure a lot of people can get some positive use out of it. But if you´re chasing power and best possible driveability then it is not the product to choose.

From day one I have heard the phrase "You can adjust it from the outside, COOL!" more than I care to remember. That seems to be a large moving ground for buying it. I thought it was a neat feature too, until I tried it. :wink:


PS. If you already have one of these, try and hook your timing gun to the engine when warm and let it idle. Then you will see that the timing jumps around in an approx. 5 degree window. Then notice the idle. After that you take a regular 205 or 009 distributor in good working condition, install it (of course make sure the pinion drive tolerance is correct. Start the engine up again, setting it at the same static idle timing. Notice what happens.





snotty said:

Well, that's not my experience. The 123 doesn't try and keep dwell constant by varying the timing. It just controls the "charging current" to the coil, which has nothing to do with timing. The spark balancing will vary timing on a cylinder-by-cylinder basis (as I understand it), but if your strobe is just connected to one cylinder that compensation should be constant, so I can't see how it can move around. Mine's rock solid.


I wouldn't recommended getting the tunable one unless you've got a dyno or rolling road in the garage. How would you measure the results of any tweaks?


In my experience, a boggo 123 works just fine. Certainly better than a mass of rotating bobweights and springs.


paulcalf said:

Excellent, I'm back in!


paradox:



Snotty:

Lol. I’m not trying to sell the things. I’ve just had one for about 10 years, and it’s worked faultlessly (that may be tempting fate...)

zedders said:

From observation rather than ownership, every 123 equipped engine I've come across is super smooth running at idle and through the revs.

Alstrup is professional and scientific about these things, he's no spotty youth, so what he says is puzzling.

Have of you tried your gun on the king lead?


Snotty:

That’s too obsessive. Like carb jetting...


paulcalf

My fault but We should shift these comments about the 123, to the 123 thread.

Sorry OP


Deefer66

Strange how 'non American' products seem to get more bad press on Samba.. or is it me? .

 

@Deefer66

No idea if samba posters are generally anti non American products.

I rarely visit the samba.

I just came across some 123 info there

 

Good stuff. Mostly all over my head
However, the Samba stuff is from 2016, so the 123 may even have had some fine tuning (did I just make a pun) since then. It’s also about the Tune and not Tune+, so maybe that is the newer released product addressing, if any, issues.


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I've just been out in my bus and realise that it's not doing so well pulling away in 1st, unless I get the revs up it bogs down. Is this the infamous 'progression' or 'flat spot' I hear about (I'm a newb wrt VW aircooled stuff.

I poked my head in the engine bay and took some photos so I could read the numbers better. It (a '71) has a Solex 34 pict-3 carb coupled to an 09 dizzy, which does not have vacuum advance, on a 1600 DP.

Advise me please. Should I throw down for a new 123 dizzy with vacuum? Would you? (And don't say 'sell your early and get a proper bay' cos I'm not listening )

 

Could be several things. I’d check/adjust/replace your contact breakers as a starting point. A 009 isn’t the best choice for a bus.

No need to splash out on a 123 just yet ...

 

Whatever answer I get to this is bound to bamboozle me for a while, but i’ll ask anyway.

I have twin Kadron carbs. Apparently they can take a ‘standard’ Vacuum Advance distributor (034 I think) but only if they have a minor surgical modification. My mechanics no about this.

Apparently, with “...no Vacuum port so needs Centrifugal Advance Distributor...”
Is the 123 a Centrifugal Advance Distributor or will I still need the modification?

Also, apparently (I say this just because it’s researched and i’ve no idea what i’m reading) “...Timing adjustments do not match standard though...” so can a programmable 123 still be used?

Cheers folks...i’ve put my brain on ice until I truly need it.


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You should be able to tap off a vacuum signal from one carb with a bit of drilling/plumbing. The take off point may actually be there, just blanked off. Don't ask me where that might be.

 

Has it always been a bit flat or is it just recent.....how often has it been used? Fuel could be a bit stale if it's been sat.
I have the same as you 1600tp pict carb and 009 distributor but mine does not have a noticible flat spot and pulls from low revs.....
However I have spent out on a 123 and waiting for it to arrive

 

Ok, cool, so the modification is still required then
I’ve got a pdf explaining it all and my mechanics already knew about the mod when I was first advised to get Vacuum Advance - so they can do it no probs.
Good point to check if it’s already there though because the engine came from America.
Cheers dude.


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Well I've owned it for about 5 days so far so I don't have anything to go by. I don't remember it being that bad when I picked it up and drove it home last week. Maybe its the weather, its a lot colder and damper today. Last week driving it home it was a heat wave...
I'm gonna squirt some carb cleaner down it, and pull the contacts and plugs and regap everything.