efuels - alternative to going electric?

Ok, so our petrol and diesel powered vehicles run on fuel that is carbon based. That's a bad thing for then environment as they pump out C02 into the air we breathe etc

but c02 is itself carbon, right? so what if we could pull that carbon out of the air and use it to make more fuel? less carbon in the air would be a good thing, and running all these vehicles we already have rather than scrapping them to make billions of EVs makes a lot of sense. Plus its potentially a fuel to keep classics on the road longer with a sustainable/ carbon neutral alternative? We already have the vehicles and we also have the infrastructure to distribute and filling station networks in place.. nothing would need to change there

Future Fuel: Porsche Sponsors Major eFuel Initiative—at $45 a Gallon (motortrend.com)

eFuels pilot plant in Chile officially opened - Porsche Newsroom

Porsche seems to think its worth investing in.

A potential better solution for global transportation for the future, or a greenwashing diversion tactic by a sportscar manufacturer who just wants to keep making whizzy petrol cars?

Thoughts?

 

I really don't think going all out electric is the answer so alternative fuels need more investment.

 

Carbon dioxide can be turned into fuel by adding hydrogen and energy to make a hydrocarbon fuel. To make a fuel you need something with suitable chemical bonds which can be charged up, but you can't magic up the energy from nowhere. Our current fuels are derived from living organisms which got their energy from the sun either millions of years ago or in farmed plants.

If you can extract the CO2 to make your hydrocarbons without expending more fossil fuels, great. Growing crops to produce ethanol or biodiesel is a temporary solution at best as farming uses a lot of conventional energy. I favour geothermal, if nuclear fusion doesn't get there first.

 

None of these alternatives will be a solution on their own.

There will have to be an offset from cheap, mass transit rail and bus systems and a mass reduction in leisure journey car usage.

It's an IBGYBG scenario........

 

If the results of scientific research in general have taught us anything its that different groups persuing different lines of enquiry in parallel, and then sharing their data, is the best and quickest way forward.
Whether the profit motive that comes with the investment ever lets that happen, remains to be seen.
We reluctantly joined the growing ranks of EV owners simply because the cash was suddenly there, we could buy used, there was a relatively small model available that had been designed and built "from the ground up" with recyclability in mind ... and that ticked the "future classic so it's a keeper" box.
The battery can eventually be put to work in domestic microgeneration when it can't realistically push a vehicle around any more.
By then there should be a decent lithium battery recycling set up available somewhere.
That's a lot of conditions and layers of committment.
Most won't be interested in all that, and it looks as if the EV-personal transport juggernaut has gathered enough pace now for it to be much more difficult for other solutions to push to the front.
If e-fuels can be economically produced without using fossil fuels in the first place then

 

I thought Harry's comparison covered this topic well.



I've got an EV as a daily drive, but there's no way I'll be getting another one when all the incentives disappear.

 

i like the idea of synthetic fuels, but I fear they'll be massively expensive compared to what we pay now.

I also suspect that they will be aimed at big boats and aeroplanes then lorries way before they filter down to the domestic pumps

 

Hello everybody,

in Germany, many are discussing and optimistically hoping for the use of e-fuels (electrofuels, synthetic fuels) in old cars and classic engines.
These e-fuels are already proven to work in cars, no question about it.
But the production needs even much, much more energy, which means that the efficiency drops further to 10-15% only.
(e-cars 70 to 80% by clean energy, hydrogen 29 to 32%, petrol 22%, Diesel 25%)

Nobody is saying how expensive e-fuels will be for us end users - so far they have only been generated from research systems.
Today prices without margin and any tax is around 4-5 € / L (today half of the price in Germany at the gas station are taxes, so it will be 8-10 € / L for us).
With a lot of hope it should be troped to around 4 € /L for us... we will see...

My next daily will be an electric... these e-fuels are just the hope not to electrify my classic cars in the short term.

regards,

 

He's been eavesdropping on the conversations we had here at home before deciding to get a relatively light, "BMW low lifecycle Co2" electric with a petrol generator for upping the range on the go.
Our electric supply is currently 100% nuclear via EDF, and we're looking to micro generate when possible, so we basically have a light version of the Range Rover?
If e-fuels get cheaper then the range-extender can have some ..... I'm happy with that!

 

Steal a Range Rover, park it up outside your pad, then run a set of tails from your fuseboard to the battery terminals on the Range Rover?

 

I run an EV at present. It works well in practice when travelling less than 200 miles a day. I have an EV tariff at 12p Kw/h
I would prefer whatever will give me a longer range 500miles +. efuels or hydrogen?

 

Hello everybody
Just a few thoughts on this subject
You don't get fuel or energy of any kind without a cost , to produce green or blue Hydrogen takes a lot of electricity that has to be generated either by fossil fuel, nuclear or bio fuel and some renewable energy , there isn't such a thing as an energy company that produces 100% renewable energy an electric vehicle uses lithium , selenium cadmium and other rare earth metals which are terrible for the environment and difficult to dispose of or recycle , the vast consumption of burgers at fast food outlets worldwide and the cattle bred for this produce vast amounts of methane which is terrible for the environment but no one mentions that as its far easier to pick on the poor motorist and let's face it you and me are far easier to tax and blame if this was just about the environment why do we get punished financially I wonder ...Hmm
We should be applauded for driving and maintaining a 45 to 50 year old vehicle in my opinion rant over .. cheers

 

I've considered the 'alternative ' electricity suppliers, but can't quite understand how one house can have nuclear electricity, whilst next door is running on the 'full fat' stuff.

 

Some good points. Re your last one though, I'd say we are being applauded. I run two classics, the bus and my buggy. Road tax cost is nil, MoT tests cost is nil, insurance is £100 each fully comp. That's enough encouragement for me to stick to historics.

PS I let my missus run the diesel Golf. I'm not completely mad.

 

I know what you mean ... after all it all gets stirred together in the grid-cauldron before zipping down the wires.
I guess the money is "assigned" because it goes to, in our case EDF, who use the nukes ... which is better than some other company that just buys it's renewable credits etc?
If Ithought we could afford it I'd switch to Ecotricity as they're for real ... and we can see their first ever turbine from our place

 

It can’t… it’s bullMarmite! All generation is into the grid!

 

well, not quite marmite but yes all electricity generated is fed into the grid, so even though your supplier may only source from sustainable generation e.g. a wind farm in wales, the actual electrons coming out of the wire may have come from something closer that was fossil fuel based.

 

Great post!!

My choice of occupation and to live near to where I work was made many years ago based on achieving a good work life balance which wouldn’t be overly expensive. Never had a big house or a new car and dare I say it reduced my dependence on animals for food by not eating them. Aren’t I wonderful…. Well no I’m not. Didn’t chase the wage so don’t have a big pension, never had the bonuses and very little by the way of equity. Not mega bothered but will be when it catches up with me. The resource squanderers will be the ones driving when I’m confined to looking out of the window as they drove past ( possibly on a day out looking at the poor people). Not bitter yet… just laying the groundwork!

 

well, efuels are just starting out so not much availability and high cost until it scales up. only hydrogen fill station anywhere near me is like a 100 mile round trip so that's also a no-go currently

two EVs in our household (plus obvs petrol T2 and one diesel estate) - i looked at the special "ev tariff" but it didn't make sense - yes its cheap at 12ppkwh but its only that low for 4 hours - in order to get the low overnight rate your "day" rate is 45pphwh which is a bit jump over the standard rate. the saving on juicing up the ev would be more than outweighed by the increased cost during the day. our rates are 39 day and 25 night (10pm to 8am so a lot longer than the special ev rates)

in the summer months the ev gets charged for free off the solar (and also our dishwasher, laundry etc all runs for free) and we also have excess to sell back to the grid, but unfortunately thats only really guaranteed in june/july/aug . may and sept usually a mix, winter months doesn't really do much at all.