CSA Grrrrrr

Had some contact out of the blue with the CSA over the last few weeks.

My daughter is 16 and since she was 3 I have been paying support under what I was led to believe was a "Private agreement".

The first letter that came was very bland with no real information other than to say that all cases were being transferred to the new organisation imaginatively title "Child Maintnence Agency" and as such were being reviewed and they felt I owed them money and would be in touch soon with a figure.

I was unsurprisingly not to chuffed with this and called them to ask what was going on considering I'd had no contact for 13years.

They said not to worry and they would write to me.

The next letter turned up demanding £9171 stating that they had no record of any payments between 2003-2006 at which point my case had become a "private arrangement ".
I questioned this and they let slip that my ex wife had had me on "direct payment" during that time and I was therefore in the frame for assessment by them, but had in 2006 closed the case properly.

As they had no record of the payments they state they had to start from a default position of I never paid and therefore owed. The only way not to owe apparently is to now produce evidence of the payments.

Something that is damn near impossible.

I asked for a break down and they sent the next letter showing that actually the payments were in their view only £6k owing but a further £3k had been added for a period before the case was open under the "current" system. So between 2002-2003.

Mynex wife unsurprisingly is reviewing the same letters and is now running about like she's won the lotto.

She has told the CSA that I haven't been paying putting the burden of proof on me to find records relating to 2002-2006. She has always been well catered for and even after the divorce despite a decree of £9k being made in my favour plus 8% per annum interest I did not enforce it as I didn't wish to disadvantage my daughter.

Today I've had to point out that if she does not tell the truth she leaves me no option but to start legal proceedings to enforce the decree debt - which to my calculations now stands at £18k.

Her view point is that I am greedy and that she is entitled to the money and is now threatening to ruin my relationship with my daughter.

The CSA I blame for this and feel I have a case for damages, for 13years all has been ticking along well.....then this!

They know they have cocked up as they can see that they have calculated the payment based on what I was earning 27/08/03 then multiplied it out. Despite being able to see on their screens that I was on incapacity benefit for a short while not long after that as Inlost my job through depression as a result of the tangle my ex left me in. ( £18k of debt, a mortgage and a child accesss battle to pay for ).

Yet even despite having these details available they won't back down and have sent these highly inflammatory letters out running years of hard diplomacy leaving us a family at war again.

Is anyone else's having or had the same game ?

 

I am well retired and not in your position. But my son divorced a few years ago. He has two children and he pays maintenance for them. At the time of the divorce settlement the monthly child maintenance was agreed in a court order. His access to the children was also in the court order which is a legally binding document which can only be varied by the court.

He pays the maintenance by monthly standing order and so has proof of payment and could not be disputed.

It would seem that you don't have a court order, but had agreed maintenance between your ex wife and yourself. Which you say you have been paying. I assume you have the agreement in writing.

From what you say, your ex is now claiming that you have not been making the payments. This is a serious accusation.

Hopefully you kept records or can prove you have made them.

If I was in your situation, I would get legal advice straightaway either from the Citizens Advice or a Family Law solicitor.

I would not get into any argument or disagreement with either your ex or CSA until you have spoken to the solicitor.

Any comments you make to the CSA may be used against you and if you feel the CSA is harassing you, then discuss it with the solicitor.

Lastly, you mentioned your daughter is now age 16, so presumably you would only have to pay maintenance until she reaches age 18.

Please get legal advice. You need professional help in your situation.

 

It's always been paid via standing order. The problem is the bank only keeps the records for a maximum of 14years ( in some cases less ) so I have been advised. So I'm going to struggle. This of course would only show the regular credit anyway, not the countless other times that I've had my hand in my pocket as parents do.....

 

The best advice anyone could give - speak to someone who knows the ropes .

I had a similar situation 10 years ago , we had an amicable arrangement which was shot to bits by the CSA ending in bitterness all round but my `lovely` ex was able to pack in work when the payments were doubled and she remarried a total knob .

Well rid

 

I have already contacted the lawyer that dealt with the divorce. They can't get me in for a month but to be honest I guess that's irrelevant as this is clearly going to take some time to unpick!

 

I just can't fathom how it is they can have no contact with me for 13 years then suddenly think it's ok to suggest I owe £9k for 2002-2006 assuming I've paid nothing when she closed the account herself apparently in 2006 as she was clearly so happy with our arrangement - yet now when I put it to them that they have it wrong and if that was the case then do they not think they might have heard from her sooner?! They shrug their shoulders and give the "computer says " response ?!?

 

i thought that the CSA were incouraging couples to settle these matters out of court so they didnt need to get involved.
I dont think its fair that payments go to 18 when at 16 you are classed as an adult, and you could get a job.
I also dont think its fair that the maintenance payments stay as they are hen partners move on and settle with a new partner, in effect having 2 incomes again.
so sad that it all boils down to money and its even worse when women use children as leverage

 

My view, from the other side (being a dad with full custody of my son) is that the CMS, formerly the CSA, are totally inept, and have absolutely no way of getting money out of a parent who doesn't want to pay. My case has been escalated from direct pay, to collect and pay, through to now apparently having an enforcement order. Unfortunately my ex didn't notify them or me when she moved house, and doesn't answer phone calls, so they tell me that although they are chasing her, their hands are tied. Complaining is pointless, so I'm thinking of going to my MP next.

In addition to this, they seem incapable of updating my file, meaning that I regularly have to tell them the same information over and over again. Even down to what number to call me on, and possible addresses, phone numbers, car registrations, bank accounts etc. to use to trace her. I'll call them a month later, and nothing.

 

Your ex clearly doesn't work in the public sector !

I'm a sitting duck - they will take what they like direct from my pay.....I found this out the hard way in 2002.

It only lasted a few months until she realised my good will would soon erode to all out war and the imposition of debt collectors to recover the money she owes me and she called the CSA off ( well it would seem not fully ).

At that time I was taking home £1100 a month and the CSA deducted £340 a month from my pay. They didn't give a hoot she had left me with a mortgage and £18k of debt to contend with - and was somehow supposed to get to work in order to earn the money they thought it was reasonable for me to be paying. Net result was a mental break down and the loss of my job, followed by two years or so of being somewhat lost in depression and despair.

 

I think also that unreasonableness comes into this situation. If a party feels they have not been receiving payments as agreed, then it would be unreasonable for the party to come back after some years to make a complaint. You said you had been paying and could show that by bank statements, so I fail to see how your ex is justified in accusing you of not paying.

The Court in divorce proceedings would always seek for both parties to agree a settlement arrangement themselves rather than a court imposing its own decision. It seems you did the right thing by your ex and your child and agreed the maintenance arrangement and you have made those payments, despite you having difficult circumstances, you did your best.

While your ex and the CSA may try to chase you for further payments or claim retrospectively, I am sure your solicitor would advise you to stand your ground. Unless you pay money voluntarily, the parties would need to go to court to claim against you. They would have to fund the case and you would be given every opportunity to make your defence and give explanations of your circumstances as you have to us on here.

Perhaps a letter from your solicitor to your ex and also the CSA may be appropriate. I would not respond personally.

At this point in time, I suggest you continue making your usual payments via your bank and let things cool a bit. The temperature is running a bit high at the moment and letting it cool down is best.

 

Thanks Merlin - thankfully I have a very loving and supportive wife and am a whole heap stronger now than I was way back, it just grates that she would even try this and as for threatening to fill my daughters head with nonsense it makes me so angry.

I fear that I am certainly not the only one about to experience this. The way they are dealing with my case suggests that anyone who has been on "Direct payment " needs to expect a letter suggesting they owe thousands as their default position is that they assume you have never paid.

 

Are you absolutely sure that the bank doesn't have records? That would be pretty compelling evidence, I'd think. Worth asking them, and explaining your circumstances, if you haven't already?

Hope you get it resolved...

 

I have to visit the branch - one complication is we have had several different accounts over the period also.

The word on the phone however was not very encouraging.

All avenues will be explored - there is simply no way I will or can afford to roll over.

The shocker for me is that just as my daughter is becoming more expensive with extra needs for collage / Uni looming my ex decides now is the time to play silly buggers.

Does she not realise that now of all times is the point at which she needs me to be on side?!?

This month alone on top of her maintence and the £30 a month pocket money I transfer direct into my daughters account she has had a further £240 to pre order kit for her college course in September - without any argument.

We have even been planing how we can get her driving etc next year - this in a bizzare twist led to us considering leasing her a new fiat 500 or similar as the free insurance deals made it the most cost effective soloution.....

Yet now.......well who knows where we will be at, it would seem most if not all of the money and good will will be spent at the solicitors fighting over fictitious bills because my ex wants to try her luck on a free lotto win!

 

Crazy. Can only wish it goes well for you. If it's helpful, post on here, let us know how you're getting on.

 

Hopefully we could offer sound advice and be of some help. The matter will work out and be resolved. Clearly from what you have said, you are a great father and have over the years topped up the payments as and when you were able. You have been doing your best. My son does his best in his own difficult situation.

These extra payments you made would need to be pointed out at the appropriate time.

We have all been in difficult situations in life, I have experienced divorce myself and had to stand my ground to gain the settlement I was seeking. Standing up for yourself is important in life and don't accept crap from the CSA or your ex or anyone else.

Deal with this matter firmly and with dignity and be business like. Keep a file of all correspondence, emails, telephone calls and so on and get as many copies of your payments as are available. Document any meetings with your solicitor and get the solicitor to write to you stating your case and what the options are.

I would imagine your solicitor would be asking your ex and/or CSA how they arrived at the amount you mentioned they were claiming you owed. It would be reasonable for them to provide a full breakdown as to how that amount had been worked out.

As you said, the matter won't be resolved for some time so in the meantime try to just live normally. If the CSA or your ex send you letters, then put them in your folder ready for your solicitor's meeting.

 

Whilst I'm not an expert. The law as I understand it is quite clear. If your ex wife leads the csa to believe that you haven't made payments during this period, either by directly lying to them, or by deliberately withholding information which makes them draw the wrong conclusion in an attempt to gain financial advantage then this would be classed as obtaining money by deception, fraud to you and me. Criminal offence. You might want to point this out to her.

 

I just read your new post so I have popped back in.

In my view, if your daughter or ex are incurring further living costs, then that is their problem and not yours.

I think you are doing too much as you are generous and they are taking advantage and seeing you as their bank. You are not anyone's bank. I would stop paying all these unofficial handouts. You have no obligation to pay for University, driving lessons and the like.

Both your ex and your daughter have to learn to earn and not expect all these gifts.

You haven't said if your ex is working or has a new partner living with her or if she has remarried.

I am a parent of two and mine are in their forties now but us Dads do like to help where we can. I still do a bit.

Generosity is a great thing but it seems to me your ex wants her cake and eat it. She has to learn that enough is enough.

 

@rustbucket may well be correct, But please don't point anything out to your ex. Keep quiet at this stage. If you start having arguments with your ex, your solicitor would not like that and it may spoil your case. Arguments will only raise the temperature even more.

Please be calm and dignified. If the other parties slag you off or threaten you, ignore them. Aim to lower the temperature as when push comes to shove you must come across as being the decent and kind bloke you are. That is your strength.

 

I've never looked at it that way. I divorced my ex, not my daughter. The long and short of it is if I get fleeced their cake will be short lived as there's only another couple 3 at the outside years left to run at this.

She runs her own salon business and is in the process of buying new house, married with another kid - she is far from destitute.