A history of Waffle - poptops ramblings take yer pick !.

Happy Talk Like a Pirate Day!

woodylubber the pirate was baywatcher for the day , cap'an Birdy eye came and greeted woody but got his name wrong has he often did " hail frank me hearty " said cap'an Birdy eye , " i'm woody " said woodylubber " -- " oooh are you now " repied Cap'an Birdy eye his voice sounding a little too John inman than long John silver , " is this what baydreams are made of " " no this is Baybirmingham " snapped woodylubber whilst dicreeetly turning his back to the wall , " keep a weather eye out for that Rickyrooo1 i'm Dubious of him" said cpn Birdy eye and with that he hopped off on his good leg to the banjoblue inn for a rum or two !.

Woodylubber kept his weather eye out on the table whilst using his good eye to watch over baybirmingham for signs of Rickyrooo! and his ship the brown swan ,sitting beneath his old sail he was a chillicamper oh how he wished he could swap places with chris the radioman in his warm communications office , but of course he could'nt , this was 17th century Jamaica and radio had'nt been invented , woodylubber was always ahead of the times his mum had told him that when he bought his first toots single in 1775 .

A drunkAardvark waddled by on his way to the banjoblue for a late one ," you old Dog you " shouted woody , " i'm not dog , i'm a drunkAardvark " replied the drunkArdvark , " Not you , that fireman over there , he's a hellraiser" repied woody . " have you lostlogic ?" enquired the drunkAardvark " never had any " , woody shouted back and then went back to keeping a weather eye out for Rickyrooo1 and the brown swan , hoping inwardly that dottydaisy woud'nt drop by again and surprise him as she had once before , he would'nt know what to say, he would just have to take her down the sANDYBAY for a bit of jivedubbin and show his magical trevor !.

As the night drew on it occurred to woody that the brown swan could be lost-en- france or rickyrooo1 the brown pirate could be having a midlife crisis , he supped his orangeena and thought about captn birdy eye having a captain morgan up at the banjoblue thats it i'm giving this baywatch lark the old heave ho and going to the pub with cpn birdy eye for a quick one , he replaced his weather eye , rose from beneath his sail and poptop2 .

 

Get on with yer resto ploptop and stop waffling nonsense !.

« on: September 20, 2011, 13:41:38 »

Well i have posted some crap i must say , and to those i have offended with my none vw latebay drivel i sincerely appologise .

When i joined tlb i liked the format , i enjoyed the freedom of expression and the option of chatting about things other than the mind blowingly difficult job of keeping our beloved vans on the road , a welcome relief from the proliferation of deadly serious vw sites out there where a hint of none tech speak got you bullied by self appointed experts and pious air cooled fanatics .

Its was'nt like that here its way more open and liberal minded , facebook for the balanced fanatic and i became hooked .

Daily i have added my humerous offerings in the vain hope of lightening our loads and i think i have covered most subjects with my ramblings , silly i know .

However i have inadvertantly stepped on peoples toes , not intentionally , oh contreur , i thought i was adding humour , bon ami and adding to the site but i along with others have taken the site slightly off course , i should'nt have .

I now realise as with all forums there is indeed a code of conduct and a course for tlb has been set pre poptop2 and pre other relative newcomers , i have tried always to conform to the code of conduct re swearing ,bad vibes etc but thats easy cos thats how i am , unfortunatey i have overstepped other not so clear lines .

Now theres times when humour is fitting and apt and other time's when it just is'nt , during i my time on here i seem to have transgressed tlb rules more than once ,or so it seems .

Its not my fault some enjoy my humour and friendly nature and add karma , i don't tell anyone to read my ramblings i don't force people to click on my posts and i can't help it if other people had poor relationships with their inlaws , i should change my posting habits though and maybe thats the best thing for the site , i like tlb a lot and the people on it have added something to my otherwise overworked life , i think the forward thinking people who created it did a good thing and i would'nt like to undermine that .

i have a resto to finish , i'm not far away from doing that and i think its time to get it finished , tlb as been a welcome distraction from it , i will crack on with my resto and post up some pics of the progress in Rhubarbs resto and endevour to keep away from the drivel board .


With hindsight i have indeed posted some drivel ,soz !.

 

Sunday waffle

As sunday is eat n chill day i have decided to post up a sunday waffle , pontification on the forum that will hopefully provoke some thought .

When i bought my first van in 1978 it has to be said they were popular and quite highly thought of but we seemed to be in the minority not the majority , in fact they were a little too pricey for my mates , and probably a little inpractical as a every day ride , so even though everyone loved em , they just would'nt part with their hard earned and actually buy , these days there seems more vw bays on the road than when they were new , they appear to go faster too .


Everyone wanted to loan ours though , my family were always asking and so were some of my mates , no chance , my family are rubbish drivers and no way was i letting mates sleep in my bed , so me n Lou used it and that was that , it was our escape vehicle the smile machine and we used it to escape our high pressure jobs , we used it to relax and the way we did it was by taking the slow road and taking the slow road slowly .

The most times we used it was for weekends or unplanned days out that turned into nights out at a beach.beauty spot etc , longer breaks were usually confined to the normal fortnight off work etc .

We loved the new forest and St ive's in cornwall , neither were as easy to get to as today cos there was'nt such good roads and could involve a nights stop over depending on progress and how many interesting things we stopped to look at on the way , but it never mattered , traffic jams equated to cup of tea time and a stop at a beauty spot or attraction which usually meant chatting to someone about the van and prolonging our journey .

We just picked a road and headed down it for our weekend breaks , no planning , no destination nothing , we just went , tea bags milk n water a box of cornflakes and the hope of finding a chippy at some point , we usually did .

Nowadays we get the impression that days out are planned with military precision and having kids ourselves means we sometimes have to as well , people go to Cornwall in a few hours and everyone in a camper seems to pass my truck like i'm in reverse !.

I reckon a lot of vw camper people are missing the point , to me its not about getting there , its always been about the journey to it and the people and places we meet on our way , you can miss so much with our fast roads that bypass most of the old towns and attractions that our lovely country has to offer .

How many of us these days stop and take in the views , stop to have a look about a village en route , just chill and enjoy a stroll about , not many , we pick our destination type it into the sat nav and hammer it hell for leather , when we get to our chosen destination we mostly do take in the sites and attractions , but we miss so much on the way .

Its great having fast easy roads , especially for me as a lorry driver , but even then i miss roadside cafe's and helping people who might have broken down or the brunette with short skirt cruising slowly by in her mx5 , i know , i'm older now but i always enjoyed taking the quieter roads , not only because they were peaceful and scenic ,they were and are full of surprises , life and communitys that once thrived on these routes may have up sticked and moved closer to civilisation but a lot of the buildings and history are still there , people are still there and life goes on , mostly at a quieter pace and with dignity .

When was the last time you stopped mid journey to your chosen holiday desination and spent half a day meandering around a old village or something equally mundane ?.


Its a bit like life really our attitude to hols , we race to the destination without enjoying the journey !.

 

The reason i put these up is i am thinking of writing a book about my resto and i don't know which way or how i will write it , i would welcome suggestions and like to hear which storys or style of my writing people prefer !.

i know they are not punctuated or edited correctly , But when and if i do decide to write it , then it will be .

ps if you think they are crap then tell me so , i won''t be offended so long as its not offensive !.

 

Just for mr Bodyrock

About two years ago we sold our beachside holiday home in Cornwall - sad sale, but the place was becoming run down and there was a succesion of leaseholders doing their best to get developement plans etc, anyhow we sold and on the long haul home up the m5 our thoughts turned to future holidays.

The common consensus was a campervan after five years of going to the same place we had a urge to see more of the country - along the way we were passed by loads of vws , bays t25s and even the odd splitty - ahhhh i love them Lou my wife sighed pointing to a bright yellow bay and quietly smiling to herself remembering our previous bays and carefree hols ( before kids ), me too shouted my 14 year old ," what "asked my 5 year old "them old bangers ", i kept quiet , having owned two previous bays i did'nt think it was the right choice -nice vans but a lifestyle as apposed to a regular ride.

In a desperate attempt to keep some sanity and room on future Hols i started pointing out the passing t25s - this was met with quiet umms and reserved praise - i was going to have to do some persuading.
August 2008 while logging into ebay i was sent a 15% discount voucher , i immediately typed in vw t25 and bang there she was - in builth wells abandoned in a garden hedge a 1982 aircoolled t25 kampa buy it now £600 , what with 15% off that was £510 - i hit the buy it now - bingo a millie second later and i was the proud owner of god knows what and £510 lighter.

A week later she was sat on my drive - she came with no interior a leaky roof and smelled like pidgeon loft , but as a bonus she did have a full service history and drove like a dream - for 12 month's i along with a friend who could weld toiled on her - new poptop , new bespoke interior, porsche seats , overhauled engine and a nice shiny spray job then it was off for the dreaded mot , a freed up brake calipre later and she was motted and as i sat in her rereading the certificate i was suddenly convinced the long nights and all the hard work was worth it -now time for home and decide where we are going for our first break .

As Lou and i talked and the kids listened quietly and the truth began to dawn , they were'nt bothered about her , the t25 that had been sat on our drive that we had named naff taff and quietly rejuvenated from a sad flat tyred shed into the thing of 80s elegance with gleaming everything did nothing for them ,suddenly i was a flat as a squashed hedgehogs wallet and not to put too fine a point on it i sulked - a lot !!

It was during this short very brief almost unnoticable six week sulk that a chap who owns a t25 westy from two streets away popped by - he asked why i had not used the van , i told him the family were not over excited by it and as nice as it was and no matter what i thought of it they preferrred bays " why don't you get a westy bay then - you should get quite a few grand for that now " he said .

And that was that .within a few hours the digi cam was out and it was on ebay - i sold her within two days for £3250 and the search was on for a bay.

I scoured ebay , autotrader, exchange n mart and small ads anywhere , i pressed the bin button on ebay twice and twice the van was sold before i could get to pick her up , i even settled for a devon in halifax and agreed to view even though it involved a 140 mile journey a night off work and drawing £3000 cash from my bank account - i was halfway there when the phone rang and the friendly yorkshire voice i had been speaking to earlier said " don't bother making the journey mate i have just sold it" to tell you what i thought of him and what i wanted to do to him or anyone with a yorkshire accent at that moment would probably get me certified so i won't.
We had all but given up hope of getting a bay with the miserly three grand we had to offer .


One monday morning i was perusing ebay in my usual nonchalant - you have nothing to offer me or that i want way , when all of a sudden within that minute a m reg westy loads of money spent which only needed a little tlc and was in hampshire near to where work was taking me that night was listed for £2800 buy it now , i trembled slightly glanced at Lou and bashed the bin button once again --

But this time i was right on the case i emailed the owner with my number stressing i was in ernest and the item was now mine could she please not sell it before i had chance to come and pay for it that evening , it was all day before she finally replied , by which time i had emailed her thirty two times and complained to ebay twice.


Of course its yours said a sweet angelic sounding lady on the other end of the phone ( she had been at work all day and phoned as soon as she got home -oops)," yes we are in all evening , yes i will direct you in when you are close , see you later" - that lady is so lovely i droolled to Lou , "she is actually keeping it for me" " is'nt that what normally happens ?" asked Lou - "No it blinking well is'nt" i shouted despair and relief showing in my terse reply, God she had no idea of the things i had been through .


That evening in the dark i made my way to hook , i was duly guided in by the sweet voice of earlier and arrived just as the street light was turned off for the night ( thats my excuse and i am sticking to it ) The sweet voice had breasts , very large breasts and a very low cut top and on the odd occasion i actually looked her in the face she smiled , in the dark i prodded and poked and groped ( the van that is ) and all appeared satisfactory , nice interior , new doors , engine sounded sweet , no oil leaks and no smoke , i remember mumbling something about a little welding does'nt matter as i have a mate , all in all with the dark , the breasts the complete and utter blind faith in ebay ,sweet voices and large breasts - i was a pratt.

The following day Rhubarb as we had named her duly arrived on the back of a breakdown truck and the driver made a throw away remark about needing a good welder and plenty of patience , i laughed paid him his £155 and waved him goodbye , oh how i wish i had paid attention and sent it straight back with him .
The next few days saw me become a member of thelatebay and numerous other westy /bay owners groups , in short i was addicted , not only was i addicted i was the proud owner of a westfalia vw t2b rhd p33 m plated genuine jobby , i was the bee's knee's - except in the next day or two i was to find the chassis rot and boy was there a lot of chassis rot , new floor pans new doors but a lot of chassis rot- god what had i done ?.
within a short time i became familiar with terms i had yet to understand - top hats , beams , deformation panels and lots of other hitherto unknown vehicle crevices , i also learned jk ,vwheritage and schofields numbers off by heart - was i repairing the van or replacing it and to make matters worse this time i had no welder mate as he had gone off lorry driving abroad - enter Bryan the new welder ----

 

I enjoyed this one myself --

POPTOP2'S GUIDE TO BUYING A CAMPER



( Not to be read in a sober state )

　

　

At this time of year some people's minds meander towards the great outdoors , some think of camping and others who are usually older or better off youngsters with one eye on street cred and comfort allow their aims to rise to a vw camper , A toad moment i call it-- the moment he unvails his caravan dream -

"Glorious, stirring sight! The poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here today--in next week tomorrow! Villages skipped, towns and cities jumped--always somebody else's horizon! O bliss! O poop-poop! O my! O my!"

Now if that moment is similar to your moment , might i suggest you do indeed buy a gypsy caravan complete with shire horse , they are less temperamental , cost less to run and you get something back for yer roses !, But no i know you want a van --


With this ambition in mind the first port of call is usually Ebay , when thats shocked them they wander down to the local campervan dealer , after being shown around a few very expensive vehicle's they promise the salesman they will go home and talk about it ( after all its a big decision ) home they go and still reelling from the reality of the vw market they head straight back to ebay , suddenly that yukky one that did'nt have this or that , or was a tad untidy , suddenly looks very appealling -- this is usually the first mistake .
Now there are alternative's to ebay but ebay is easily accessible and we usually find the alternative source's after we have made our ebay purchase .To that end i will name a couple , Autotrader , brill for tyre kickers if thats yer thing , volkzone, the latebay sales section and other vw specialised forums , these are the best source as you can get insider knowledge from other members who are usually only to willing to offer advice on your prospective purchase ( be careful though some posters have more than one identity ) and you could find yourself being advised by the seller as once happened to me.Now then for the inspection and test drive - you will need , in no particular order --

Large very pointed screwdriver , hammer ,torch, magnet for filler detection, a friend to wander around keepin the seller distracted whilst you smack bang and prod the said van into the shape of a beetle .

Tbh you really don't need to smash bang and prod too hard on most British vans , because after 30 or more on our roads the Nantwich seasoning ( road salt ) as usually made the rot easier to spot ,its signified by large holes with red looking edges and bits of otherwise straight metal missing ,.

Satisfied that the tinworm has'nt eaten too much of your dream away ( they all have tinworm every one other than genuine resto's, which you can't affford ) its now time for a test drive , you will be best to check he has rac/AA cover before you go and a spare gallon of petrol , your friends number in your mobile and if possible get him to follow you in yer own car , that way when the van conks out , you have the satisfaction of leaving the seller stranded with his bag of nails.

THEY WILL LIE - " i have serviced it myself " usually means , they changed the plugs once cos it was playing up , " it has'nt used a drop of oil " quick check it he does'nt know where the filler is !, "Brakes are brilliant " No they are not , they can be brill, they but usualy are'nt . He/she will mention parts and panels he/she has had changed replaced repaired or serviced and you won't understand a single word ,until your restoring it yourself , usually at the next mot date , when you find out that lovely couple who sold you the van were in fact lying sods and you wish them very bad vibes man , and on and on he will witter about great hols , the freedom and the scene ( the scene is good ). but most people own them for a couple of years go away in em twice , then decide its not for them and wack em on ebay and add a couple of thousand to the price they bought em for then spend the next twenty years waxing lyrically about wonderful days in his/her great van " wish i'd never sold it".

Things to bear in mind --

The 1600 tp engine is underpowered , it is perfectly adequate but if you want it to go like yer Corsa , it won't , well it will go as well as most Corsa's cos they get nailed , but not yours i know .The better engines are the bigger , i will at this point mention none of em are fast , but the bigger ones with twin carbs get up hills quicker , but they use more jungle juice and take more tinkering with imo .

TIPS

Sniff carefully for a scent of wackybacky , dopeheads love thier vans most and wax most lyrical about them , but usually spend more on the weed than their van , but don't care cos breaking downs a gas man .

The engine is in the back !.

Do not under any circumstances fill it with water !.

Do not test drive at speeds of over 80 - You and the seller will likely die !.

The steering wheel is in ahead of the front wheel you will go around the corner before the van , check in your mirror that its still there after you get on the straight.

Make sure you are happy with the van before pating with your hard earned , because he/she is probably emigrating the moment you leave their drive , check for suitcases in their hallway.

Modern garages will imo mostly rip you off , go to a geeky type dope smoking in the scene bone fide vw aircooled mechanic , there are loads about and they are very knowleable , helpful and great guys , weird but great , they would also be a good source when buying a van ( don't buy their own van its a bag of sh--e , because he never gets time to fix it ,NO MATTER WHAT HE TELLS YER , he wants to get rid and get a good un !.

This guide was brought to you from the wonderful world of poptop2 , it is not totally accurate, it is written only from poptop2's own life experiences and as such subject to severe scrutiny as poptop2 has been known to tell big whoppers .

Finally a few words of wisdom --

Unless you really , really enjoy cold floors welding and spending loadsa money -

SPEND A LITTLE MORE AND GET A GOOD UN !.

 

Sorry to hi jack this thread Jd but it reminds me of one of the greatest put downs i ever had the pleasure to hear .

When i was building for a living i had the misfortune of taking on a job for the most bombastic bull headed man ever , i won't go into detail about him but suffice to say i did'nt like him .

Any how he had bought a wooden house that was leaseehold and you paid ground rent to a local farmer , he paid £34000 cash as it was unmortgageable it was a ropey old place but it did have a brand new Arga cooker which he liked and kept .

He asked me initially to renew the foundations , we did this by jacking it up and dropping it back on to a new concrete and brick base , in the processs we discovered the wooden walls were completely rotten and so he asked me to renew them and at great cost we did we also renewed all the doors and windows .

Finally he decided if he'd gone that far he might as well get us to cut a whole new roof on , costa lotta!.

i had two chaps who worked for me at the time ( mid 90s ) and one of them was a lad called Bob who was a really quiet bloke , good all round labourer and decent bloke , he never said much and when he did he spoke slowly and concisely , this bullying customer decided wrongly from the outset that he never liked Bob and picked on him relentlessly calling him thick , lazy and worse ,Bob used to get upset but was too thoughtful to say anything to him .

A few times i had to speak to the bully and ask him not to upset my lads and everyone else who came to site and after three month's i had had my fill of him .

On the very last day , me and the other lad Tom were placing the last few ridge tiles on the roof and Bob was painting a door in the kitchen , the bully turned up and not realising i was on the roof laid straight into Bob , we could hear it from the roof and i thought i best get down and stop him , but Bob sorted it - he said


" Mate you have called me thick and stupid and dim since i have been on this job and true enough i might be , but i never paid £34000 for a arga !" --

Me n Tom had to hold ourselves on the roof , he had indeed paid £34k for a arga , he never bought the ground it was leasehold and he had to have the bungalow completely rebuilt !.

The name he chose for the bungalow was - DUNOVER !!

 

One cold night in my truck


it was february 1988 i was working for cow and gate the baby food people on multidrop deliverys , i was driving a
M A N wagon and drag with sleeper cab and heading for a night out just outside Harrogate at a pharmaceutical packers .

i finished my last drop about 5.30 and drove the 20 or so miles to Harrogate ,when i got there the at about 6pm i went in to see the boss and passed about 15 women packers on the way , they're working late i thought , the boss said i could park up in the yard and be tipped in the morning at 7.30 , he said there was a chippy down the road , a off licence and a pub , sorted .

So after a scrub up in the works toilet and a change of clothes i popped down the local for a swift one , quiet pub so had the one grabbed a bag of chips and a couple of newcie browns from the offie and headed back to the cab .

About four in the morning clad only in me skidders i clambered out of me pit for a wazz , after emptying the newcie browns and the pint from the pub up me wheel i went to get back into me truck , sugar , i had knocked the lock down on the way out ,i was stranded ,middle of the night the weather was taters and i only had me skidders on - panic !.

After my unmentionables had retreated far enough back inside my scrotum and my best friend had shrunk to the size of a maggots bum i remembered i had left the roof light open on the truck , and then i noticed a light on in the factory .

i cautiously peeped my head around the factory door to see who was there , blimey all the ladys i had seen earlier were there , it was a night shift , christ now what i thought -- i whistled discreetly to the nearest lady , she did thankfully look middle aged and motherly ,she would be kind , she came over with a look of surprise , i was crouched behind the door with just my head sticking out , she asked whats up , i told her of my embarassing predicament and asked if i could borrow a broom to stick through the roof light and pull up the door handle .

She gave me a reassuring nod and skiddadled off for a broom , she passed it through and ushered me off ,asking at the same time if i wanted a coat , nahh it won't take a minute now luv thanks and off i went ,i climbed to the top off my truck pulled open the roof light further and attempted to pull the door handle up - it was more difficult than i thought and i let out exhasperated moans .

lay there on the roof in my smalls and freezing i eventually managed to pull the handle up , i stood up to get down and someone shouted - " hooray he's done it " i looked across to the factory door , every one of the blooming night shift had watched the whole debacle , they began to cheer as i climbed down , and shouted things like - " dya need something longer ? , do you want a bigger tool ?, was it long enough ?" , i could have died , i sheepishly handed the broom back to the motherly lady who was stood there beaming from ear to ear , some other woman tried to grab me and pull me skidders off and some others asked me if i needed warming up .


Man i could'nt get back in my cab quick enough , by 7,30 the half a pallet of baby food i had for them was neatly stacked by the back door the delivery note was signed by moi and i was long gone to my next drop !.

Moral of the story -- never trust them middle aged women , no matter how kind they seem !.

 

Thanks dude

 

its got a crackin stereo and nice wheels

When i bought my van i bought in haste much to my eternal embarassment i failed to notice a couple of minor details in fairness , i overlooked the need to have a chassis ,well one that was'nt akin to the titanics hand rails ,i failed to notice ( as everyone does ) that the rear torsion beam - a significant component in the ability to actually roll a van along - was indeed snapped in half ,i also failed to properly inspect - the engine , wiring , steering , front beam , lighting , poptop , brakes and previous history , at this point in my story i feel you may think " dopey git " well you'd be right , apart from and i did actually realise this when i did my otherwise non effectual inspection , the crackin stereo and nice wheels .

In fairness twenty four hours after having her on my drive it began to dawn on me that all i did really have was - a crackin steroe and a nice set of wheels -- what did i do ? -

i turned the stereo on and polished the wheels ^-^.

i have been playing the stereo for for the last fifteen month's as i toiled on the rest of the van , i have'nt polished the wheels much as they're a bit redundant right now , but the stereo and my favourite tracks have seen me through , the dulcid tones of Mark knoffler and the up beat rock of Springsteen and the e street band have been my saviour , i hide away scraping grinding and repairing till my hearts content , when i have worn myself and my enthusiasm out i switch off my steroe an head back to the madhouse we call home .

My jvc as been my friend my comforter and my soul mate , its inspired me when other things have got me down , its soothed my soul when i wanted to stamp my feet and chuck the ( now defunt )angle grinder through the windscreen , its carried on working when all other electrics have failed , in short its been a crackin stereo-

It packed up today !!.

Actually i never cried that much , well i did but in all honesty i had given it a hell of a task , i mean if i had hired a alto choir to sing me through my resto they would all be tenors now , there would have been others dropping balls as much as me . i digress - what did i do i hear you ask , how could it be corrected , how could this untimely demise be got over ???.

i asked myself the same thing , i had a fag and a cuppa and in the finest tradition - i scratched my head and looked confused --

"Whats up ?"Lou asked as she came into my serene enclave ( the garage with pit - don't y'know ) and saw my distressed state , i wiped away the tears , drew in a deap breath and explained my stereo had now given up the ghost on me as well and i can't seem to get any leccy into the cab , i was a little miffed she could see , i think the dent where i had punched her washing machine gave it away , ohh and the pile of tissues ( THAT I USED TO WIPE AWAY MY TEARS YOU FILTHY MINDED SODS ) on the garage floor by my feet may well have let the cat out of the bag , " oh dear " she cooed ,it did'nt help that she had a rye smile on her face and kept looking away , " Well don't you think it would help if you connected the battery ?!!" --

Derrr , i looked down by my feet and there beneath the pile of tissue's was the safely disconnected battery .

Ermm , i have been tidying the engine bay and last night before i went to work i removed the battery !!.

Its a crackin stereo , nice wheels too !.


:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[------------------------------------------>>>>