Hook up on your van

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Merlin Cat, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. I'm a short ar$e - more likely an uppercut to the gonads.
     
    snotty likes this.
  2. A quick knee in the nuts, and he’ll stop going on about Fixed Installations :thumbsup:
     
    Purple likes this.
  3. theBusmonkey

    theBusmonkey Sponsor

    Hi @Purple .
    I'm not a sparky, don't really get AC to be honest, just a bloke who wants to camp safely, with regards to my own bus and the site electrics.
    This topic has come up a few times before and I always understood it was good practice to have double pole breakers just in case the site had it wrong especially overseas, and that the best practice is to earth bond with min 4mm just in case there is the faint possibility of sending the bus live with a chaffed wire.
    Is that so?
    It's just that I guess I'm like most mortals on here who don't want to endanger friends or family by doing something daft by being uninformed.
    I get extensions work, but for us with little experience in the potential dangers of electricity, are they the best practice? Isn't it just safer for the masses to have a fixed, securely protected, proper blue plugged and bonded set up?
    My cables get wound and unwound, left out in the sun and rain, get wet etc etc and I'll bet I'm more attentive to their condition than many.
    What dya think?
     

  4. I've been down both roads with vans in the past - did a fixed installation with an RCD, one way fuseboard fitted inside one of the fixed cupboards, with the cables run in mini-trunking to a socket fixed above.

    I've now got a van with removable sink and cooker pods that are effectively portable items, secured with a large wing nut and removed in 30 seconds so the van can be used with an empty floor space.
    To have fixed wiring and fixed sockets etc. in that set-up would be unsuitable, so it is better for me to use a camping lead like this one - effectively an extension lead with an RCD fitted to protect the sockets, the same principle as the type you can use hedge trimmers in the garden, but with the RCD at the socket end, rather than the plug end. I like the flexibility of having the sockets wherever I want - I don't class my van as a little house on wheels, it's a kombi van to use as a transporter or as a camper that I can eat and sleep in it if I want to.

    The discussion diverts to the application of Wiring regulations, but my opinion is that using a camping lead in this way does not come under the regulations, just like using an RCD extension lead with hedge trimmers doesn't either.

    I can see no reason why using an RCD protected camping lead is in anyway less safe, I'd be careful not to jam it in doors, windows etc, like I am with all other electrical equipment I use.


    camping lead.jpg
     
  5. matty

    matty Supporter

    It’s less safe as the body of the van is not earthed so not protected by a low impedance earth path. You say your careful but can you say the same for those around you.

    The decision does it need to comply with the regs for fixed wiring is by doing a risk assessment taking in to account of things like the frequency that you use the van, What you use it for, The location you use it, the type of equipment you are plugging in.

    Given
    Your sleeping in it
    Your in a public area
    Your using it in damp/wet conditions
    It’s being plugged into a unknown supply

    I would risk assess it as requiring installation that complies with the regs for a motor caravan.
     

  6. No, you'll see that I have assessed the use, frequency, likelyhood and severity principles of risk assessment and concluded that, based on my layout and use parameters, I dont require an installation that complies with the regs for a motor caravan.
     
    snotty likes this.
  7. I know we both had a dig earlier (think I started it lol) and I can see what your trying to get across and I think I see where your coming from. There are a number of reasons to install a fixed electrical installation within a bus. I can see your argument that if there is an installation then there is a set of regulations for the designer/installer and indeed the user to follow. These aren't mandatory but are best practice and if utilised will effectively ensure a safe system and reduce (or remove) the likelihood of prosecution of the installer should the protective measures fail. Adherence to the regulations and indeed a condition report are actually a requirement on some sites by the way! and certainly are required within the rules of the main site "clubs".

    Your reference to the proprietary leads being outside the scope of the IET regulations as they are a portable appliance is correct but actually isn't the point. The regulations stipulate that the supply should be a fixed installation.

    The guidance on Portable appliances, again produced by the IET generally warns against the use of extension leads for permanent/fixed installations.

    So.... what's the difference (which is probably the whole point of the argument). Well firstly I will wager that most fixed installs don't comply with current or previous regulations. Id also wager that most extension leads used in the way you describe don't comply with minimum requirements for safety either so this is rather subjective. (probably in relation to the size of the flex and single pole devices being common). The main difference between a fixed installation in the bus and effectively an extension lead is that if both are selected and sized appropriately the risk of shock is minimised by the use of permanent fixed earths in the vehicle and the reduced potential for damage to the fixed wiring and protective devices (if installed correctly) as opposed to temporary leads which may become damaged in storage or transit and the protective device being banged and rattled about etc.

    So the comments regarding checking flexes etc. for damage are good ones. Difficult to check devices for damage though! remember most folk have very little or no electrical competence.

    As I said before - you take your decision and you take your chances. I think myself that it would be very unwise for a competent electrician to advise anything other than the approved methodology for including electrics within a camper on a public forum.

    As I say the general public have little or no competence in this area and when you water down the requirements then what's next.... a decision that the RCD is irrelevant or that a three core cable is too expensive..... so why not emit the earth wire... it works without it!

    Hope this helps
     
    77 Westy, matty, Purple and 1 other person like this.
  8. Its not necessarily about you is it! Have you read the regs?
     
  9. ron

    ron

    i maybe wrong but you should use a rcd - if properly regulated, supplies on camp sites have a rcd inbuilt however because these might protect multiple supplies they are time delayed ( milliseconds )to allow the campers indivual rcds to trip first - so while not having a rcd MIGHT be safe it does help in keeping the karma of the site good
     
  10. ron

    ron

  11. Very thorough and informative- I wouldn't argue with any of it.
     
    theBusmonkey likes this.
  12. The post you extracted that from directly quoted my post so was about me!

    I haven't read the Regs concerning motor caravans because my kombi van is not fitted out in the context of a motor caravan. I have no intention of misleading anyone with regards to safety, but my opinion remains that use of an RCD protected camping cable is safe in the contect I have discussed. The risk of electrocution from extrenuous metal parts exposed in a van whilst using either a fixed or cable based RCD is extremely low, certainly low enough for my comfort zone. People who use a hairdryer whilst standing on the roof of their van may think otherwise!
     
  13. For Clarity what I was referring to was the fact that your decision not to offer the best level of protection and omitting safety features is your choice but may affect others. hence my comment "its not about you".

    Are you an electrician? If you are then you must have read them at least to some extent to pass your regs exam?
     
    Pickles and matty like this.
  14. You quite like your little digs don't you ?!

    Yes I've used Regs books, haven't needed one since 1993 for my 16th Edition Approved Electrician ticket with South Wales Electricity.
    Left it all behind to study and achieve a BSc Electrical Engineering with a bit of IOSH thrown in along the way.

    What some people do is decide their answers before they read whats in front of them - you have to take the Regs in the context they were intended - fixed installations, yes that might now cover Motor Caravans, but always on the assumption that the installation in the Motor caravan is fixed - fixed sockets in a cupboard unit, or fitted to the front panel of the bed, whatever it is, but it always assumes that you are applying the principles to a fixed installation. I repeat again, if I have no fixed furniture and therefore no fixed circuits or accessories, the Regs don't and won't express an opinion either way.

    That's the context I have been trying to explain and one that you have begrudgingly excepted, but for some reason keep throwing the Regs back up. Your implying that I shouldn't have electricity in my van because I don't have fitted furniture to install sockets and a Dist Board in....
     
  15. Digs... disagreement. A dig is personal I’d say. This is more of a professional matter. My understanding is your electrically competent but giving other people poor advice!
     
    delilah and matty like this.
  16. Merlin Cat

    Merlin Cat Moderator

    As I currently have a portable extension, how could I earth my van?

    Complete spanner question but could you use one of those rods that stick in the ground and attach it to the van - and maybe something electrical?
     
  17. I'm not giving anyone poor advice, if you read through the posts you'll see I've commented on what I would do and what I have done, in the context of the type of van fit-out I have.

    And to think that my nan lived in a little terrace house most of her life, one old socket in the kitchen wired in vulcanised rubber cable, with an adaptor in it. No bonding to the sink or pipes, earth sourced from the incoming lead water pipe. Every day she opened the metal door of her fridge to take the milk out for a cuppa tea.

    She died aged 87.

    Angina......
     
  18. We aren’t going to agree here are we! The thread is about hook up. Not that you use an extension lead! What would IOSH say lol!
     
    matty, Pickles and Purple like this.
  19. Do you really need one?
     
    Merlin Cat likes this.
  20. IOSH would say Manage the Risk
    Regs would say Design out the Risk

    Id say we'll agree somewhere in between !
     
    Dicky likes this.

Share This Page