Four Bolt Virgin....The thread of my first engine removal

Easy-peasy
@Pickles's T4 on his own is more of a struggle. His exhaust system alone probably weighs as much as your complete built up engine.

 

I think my other problem as well as the weight, I was trying to push the engine uphill and on a rough style tarmac drive, _ i'd definitely do the bit of plywood on the ground next time or fine another place to drop it. No wonder I have had a bad back all week

 

I have to prise my trolley jack across a knackered concrete floor with a nail bar if I forget to park it in the right place.

 

The plywood defo helps..just helped the sliding on and off a treat!

 

You didn't use copies of Razzle, then? I'm disappointed...

 

oh they got used, don'y you worry about that

 

How's your eyesight ?

 

Oh its fine, obviously......just a side question, obviously for a friend...but is the late bay forum available in Braille? My friends eyes are shot, but my friend claims their touch is still functional

 

didn't quite make it, took longer to get the two pipes onto the heat exchangers, in hindsight would have been easier to have done whilst the engine was out fitted the exhaust, new servo vacuum pipe and it rained a couple of times , I need to fill with oil and connect the battery that is about it, ohh no its not still need to do refit the gear linkage, need someone to help with that. Hopefully get it running early this week and MOT/Tax before the end so I can use it on Saturday/Sunday.

 

OK well I promised to write up what I did on my first engine removal to hopefully help anyone else that finds themselves in the same position.

Engine being removed is a Type 1 in a 1979 Late bay

My bus
Its not perfect, there are rust spots all over, throughout the pictures the fuel lines are tie wrapped on.. but that was part of what the engine was coming out for.. all jobs are noted, and will get done, but the point of the following posts are to try and help someone else who faces the fact they need to pull an engine and has not an idea…

My method
This is simply a transcript of what I did, it may not be the best way, the quickest way, the correct way it’s just the way I thought was best… it worked, so I am happy with that! What you do is up to you, I am simply telling you my tale… If you go through this, then plan and execute what you think is best.. then share your tale… this is not a “how to pull your engine” guide simply, my story...and what my glamorous assistant and I did

Technical level
My glamorous assistant and I both have Engineering qualifications, and work for an engineering company. Before starting in the world of buses, I have owned, maintained and built a lot of mini’s and I have also read a manuals and articles about the engine, and spoken to a few TLBs about what I was about to do….I have even been on the Type 2 Bus Boot Camp (I really enjoyed it!) - so I am not a pure novice - but I dont know air cooled engines, but I do know what a dizzy, alternator, etc. is.

Part 1 - Prep work
Firstly I read all the books and information I could lend my hands on, the main manuals are in the picture, but I also read any threads I could find on the TLB…. I also asked a few direct questions to a few forum members as well - it all helped to make sure I knew what to expect. I think the pre work paid off during the job. I have never taken out a Type 1 engine before, so I am far from an expert at air cooled engines, my glamorous assistant never has either. Manuals below are what I have


Kit
A glamorous assistant
No picture on this one, as my friend was camera shy but I cannot stress that a second person is needed IF you have not done this before, they are great not only to help mop your brow as you go, but are great to bounce ideas off, keep your sanity / encouragement / determination / laugh. My wife and I agree we would probably not be living together if we tried it together.. I would recommend a friend not your partner!

Toolkit
Basically I used a 10mm for the connections on the Alternator, 15mm on the Engine Support Bar, 17mm on the “Four” nuts, 14mm spanner on the engine lid nut, Philips and Flat Screwdriver. My toolkit is a Halfords Advanced Professional kit which is about £100 when its on offer - lifetime guarantee on items, so anything snaps - just take it back (with the receipt) and they replace them


Trolley Jack
I have a decent trolley jack that was liberated from an old garage that was shutting, but I would recommend that you want a decent one that can cope with the job. I had a piece of ply on top of the jack to let the engine bed into the wood a bit for the engine to have a bit of protection and also to try and support the whole of the engine when we were lowering it. For further support I also had two bits of sleeper (120mm * 240mm); the longest length worked brilliantly for when the jack was supporting the engine while the engine was “free”, and then the shortest length for when the engine was lowered. I would also recommend a piece of plywood for putting the trolley jack on, it makes sliding the jack much easier than concrete / tarmac! (thanks @snotty)



Wheel Ramps
I borrowed these from my mate @paulandchez , as I had thought the engine needed to come out of the engine bay so had these to raise the bus, however to get to the fuel tank, all I needed to do was move the engine out of its normal location, so these were not used for raising the bus… however they were used as seats for when we were working in the engine bay, and also standing on to look down the back of engine through the engine hatch… I am a too short to look over the back of the bus and down the back of the engine!



Radio / Torches
Not so particular must have, but I would recommend a radio to keep you half sane for “them” moments, and also a head torch and a hand torch for just having a look around the engine


Bucket of Sand
This was something that was pulled in for when the fuel lines were being played with, great for catching fuel spills or anything else you dont want over your driveway!



Odds and Sods
Just a few things that I found cracking for doing the job….. In no particularly order Can of Degreaser and Copper Grease for cleaning bolts and sorting for the next time the engine comes out . Vaseline was used on the piping that we had to put on, so just help to slip the pipes on. Paper toweling simply to clear mess up, be it on your hands, engine wherever! Freezer bags were used to bag screws, bolts up in… these worked brilliantly on the bolts… we simply placed the bolts and nuts into the bags, marked them up for where they came from, and then sprayed the degreaser into the bag and let the magic happen while work continued. Additional things we had were masking tape to mark the engine/ connections up, magic marker for the freezer bags, and a ball point pen for the masking tape, notepad to write everything down we did, in the order we did it (worked wonders for when we placed everything back together and the engine didn’t turnover - we quickly spotted what else had been taken off - starter wires!)

 

Part 2 - Preparing the bus

I basically ensured I had full access to the bus by removing the engine hatch and the engine lid, this was going to just give us an easier day.


Hatch is pretty easy to remove, the lid may not be so obvious, but all you need to do is remove the bolt on the left, then disconnect the lid stay, then the whole lid slides left to come off - don't forget to disconnect the reg plate light wiring before sliding.


I also moved my wheel clamp to the front just as a half decent chock

 

Part 3 - Disconnecting the loom / fuel from the engine

Quick word up front... mark, photograph and write down everything you do in this section...take your time, concentrate and dont skip one step!)

First of all the battery was disconnected


Then in no particular order, I took the wiring of the Alternator (marked the two wires 1 and 2) and then marked the points on the alternator body itself as 1 and 2 so when the engine went back in it was basically put 1 - 1, 2-2 etc…


Next was the coil connections and the dizzy connections (these were marked 3 and 4 respective). I also marked the main cable looms as well so it helped on the re-install when main looms went were...All electrical looms went to the side of the battery.


Next step was to simply label the Dizzy cap left (L) and right ( R) to help when taking the cap on and off as it gave easier access to the fuel line and brake servo vacuum


Throttle cable was disconnected next, with a pair of pliers to hold the mechanism while the screw retaining the throttle cable was released.


Brake servo vacuum pipe came off next, and was moved the near side of the engine bay


The final disconnect was the fuel line, which we examined and as the fuel lines were replaced, decided to move the metal line upwards so we could place a fuel line on that allowed us simply to use as a tool. The line was approx 1.5m long with a M8 bolt in to stop the flow of fuel. This line was kept above the line of the fuel tank so no fuel would flow unless we wanted. We tie wrapped this line out of the way using a spare wheel anchor.


Then the tank was drained (this is not essential to remove the engine, but we were also fixing the fuel tank - so was for us!)

 

Part Four - Engine Removal

Sorry I don’t have a lot of pictures here as playing under the bus, my mind was more on the job and taking photo’s apologies…. but when I do this again (as there is bound to be a second time) I’ll try and sort it then and update the post… so more narration for the next bit.....

First of all the tinware and foam was removed from all over - this also includes the pipe and grommet the throttle line went through


We then decided to loosen the four engine bar bracket bolts so the engine was not pushing down on them if we had undone the four engine nuts/bolts also further support was given by the trolley jack (with plank over the top) that we had positioned under the engine choked with the sleeper in its 240mm orientation..


Then it was time for the “Four nuts”. If you consider for a moment the engine as a clock face, looking at the engine front end on (so you can see the fan belt), the nuts are located at 2 / 4 / 8 and 10 positions. 4 and 8 are the bottom ones and the 2 and 10 are the top ones. 2 is the bolt for the starter motor (which has a half moon bolt head), 10 I think is the clutch side. The bottom two are not really worth worrying about as they are simple to get off..We did these first, then moved to the top two. The bolt at 2 position is not that hard to sort with one person pushing on the bolt head underneath the bus (its located on my engine at the top of the starter motor), while the other unscrews the bolt through the engine hatch… the swine is number 10… If you are able to break your wrist it may be much easier… both of us did not enjoy doing this one! For the record, all four are 17mm.

So now we raised the trolley jack to take the strain of the engine, and took of the four loosened bolts that held the engine support bar on. So technically the engine is free…. we positioned ourselves so one of us was looking from above and one moved the trolley jack and was the puller… Through a series of wiggles and jack raises / lowers and big pulls.. the engine came free… as we lowered to the floor we turned the chocks to 120mm orientation and all seemed happy on the floor.

 

Part Four - Putting it all back together

With all honesty the procedure for placing it back in was the reverse of everything in Part Two and Part Three..so in summary

- Raise the Engine - choking to 240mm
- Position the Engine bar onto the cross members they sit on
- Raise / Lower the jack to align the engine (one looking down - acting as guide and steadier, other to be trolley jack operator sliding the engine in)
- Engine Support bolts in and loosely tightened
- Four nuts on (good luck with the position 10 bolt)
- Heater pipes connected including wires
- Throttle Cable threaded through pipe
- Tinware and foam on
- Fuel and electrical connections back on
- Job done
- Tea and medal time!

 

Additional 1 - Why did the engine come out

The reason why the engine had to come out was due to the bus springing a leak of fuel… honestly it poured from the side of the gap the fuel tanks exits from like a waterfall.. right over the starter motor… Called the AA, Police turned out… and the fire brigade… However I am a big believer in that things happen for a reason…. So when the engine came out....

We took off the firewall - this could have come off with the engine in, but honestly it was better to have the engine out of the way for what came next…


We took the rubber pipe out that connects the metal fuel filler to the tank and likewise from the filler spout at the top… This was such a joy, honestly some say they can do this by feeding their arms around through the paint tin lid hole - I have no idea how they can do this…. we couldnt… the metal pipe is shown


So through a mystical turning action we removed the metal fuel pipe and released the plastic section at the top of the filler section, and also at the bottom what connects back to the fuel tank.. This was not easy but after a while of jamming the pipe into all the corners in the void we finally got it on and secured. Once in place we tested the connections by dropping 5 litres of the fuel we extracted during the engine removal. All was good. In addition to this we also sorted all the fuel lines going into / around the engine with R11 line.


So did we get the pipe fault? We think so, judge for yourself…

 

Additional 2 - Things I learnt

By going through the whole experience I learnt loads…. Here we go (in no particular order)

- Taking a type 1 engine out is not that bad, as long as you plan ahead, and have gone through the procedures a dozen or so times in your head before starting!
- Give yourself plenty of time, you don’t want to rush, as problems are going to appear - especially if neither of you have done this before, and you are going to have to talk it through, or search the TLB / internet for a solution
- If you need to get into the fuel tank, the engine only needs to be lowered, it does not have to come out...out!
- There is less of the wiring loom attached to the engine than you think!
- I found the source of my oil leaks (rocker covers!)
- Dont listen to all the advice… listen to what you get given, and back that off with what you can see and what you have read in manuals before acting
- Get a great friend to help - your friendship might be tested at points!
- Having a partner who just lets you crack on helps MAJOR - equally one who is happy brewing and sticking the BBQ on wins hands down!
- An in-line fuel cut-off switch is a great idea outside of the fire wall / engine bay - especially as when you take the engine out for the first time, you are more likely to want to do it again!
- You get a better idea of every part of your engine and how to maintain it - as now you can take the engine out, there is no hard to get to spots (though I am sure there are!)
- IF you smell fuel - investigate it - always assume, nobody has done the fuel line as good as your going to...replace regularly with quality parts!!
- A clean engine is a joy to work on - mine wasn’t!
- Dont underestimate the power of swarfega
- Writing everything down as you go, and label everything, it helps more than you realise...especially if you didn’t at the beginning or forget you disconnected the starter motor!
- Make sure you have spare grommets for the fuel line AND the throttle cable pipe
- Degreaser and bolts in freezer bags are a winning combination!
- Trolley jacks on plywood when pulling engines are a winning combination!
- Copper grease all bolts when putting things back together - makes it easier next time
- Make sure you have a fine collection of various M sized bolts and nuts before you start, the ones you are removing are old!
- Great feeling of achievement is given when the engine comes out / goes in / fires up / drives away

To end this cherry popping session I just want to say a big thanks to the following forum member who from the moment the fuel came out, have either helped keep my spirits up, gave technical advice, lent me tools, suggested the use of jazz mags or coming to give me a hand... Cheers people

@paradox @snotty @paulandchez @rickyrooo1 @Luis Navarro @womball @Pickles @paneuropaul @brothernumberone @gman4175 @cunny44 @davidoft @baybirmingham @Fil6 @Baysearcher @philntfc @Disco_kegs @14platoon @zed @bernjb56 @jivedubbin @Stan @Neptuneblue @bernardfishtrousers @vanorak

Last but not least, my glamorous assistant, who I would never have completed it without him, and Mrs Wonty for sorting feeding and watering moments!

Cheers all.... well time for a Gin and Tonic, before heading over the body shop tomorrow - AS Planned!

Until the next adventure!

 

You appear to have an prototype bay engine/tin and moustache bar on some chassis brackets that look possibly made from ones cut from an early and made into ones that will bolt to a late. Then you of course have the access hatch above - most T1 engined buses don't have this extra hatch.
All neatly done I have to say, but anyone following this as instruction will find they have a different engine bar and brackets and not such luxurious access.

 

Next time on bolt at 10 use a 17mm socket on a reasonably long extension so your ratchet clears the bell housing , doddle!

 

At times it did not feel luxurious

 

If you get the chance, volunteer to help someone remove a 1700 T4 from a early 72 (no top hatch) with a factory fitted engine bay eberspacher and the T4 heating aux fan hanging from the engine bay roof. Grim!