Lottie, a 79 full restoration Part 1/2/3/4/5

Discussion in 'Restorations' started by martinvention, Jul 12, 2015.

  1. Good old cider press used to gently ease the input shaft out of the big ball race, allowing both shafts to be removed and examined. So far only damage seems to be the 3/4 syncro hub arrowed below, which will need replacement. All gear teeth and baulk rings seem to be good with a nice clearance between baulk rings and the flanges of the mating cones. Apart from seals/a few circlips/gaskets/blocker bars the only other bit I am looking for is a final drive flange as the nearside one (diff crownwheel side) is not such a firm sliding fit as I would like. The diff splines look good so I hope a better flange will make life easier for the oil seal around it. I think I once saw a website offering dish washers to go under the flange circlips, presumably to limit flange wobble? I would be grateful for any advice on this, and sources of new/used hub and flange, also regarding baulk rings some of mine have traditional ribbed cone faces and one seems to be teflon? coated. So a couple of piccies: Syncro hub damage.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    paradox likes this.
  2. The use of the phrase flange wobble made me chuckle:lol:
     
    Weasel, Johnnyunderpants and ned like this.
  3. Thank you paradox, like your photo; you would have had good company @ Stonehenge for the Winter Solstice? Talking of Winter my old gearbox has seen a few and perhaps a bit of road salt so the big question of how to restore/protect the mag alloy casing. Here you can see where a bit of galvanic interaction with the steel clutch cable holder has nibbled the casing:
    Gearbox corrosion.jpg

    So rather than wire brush/polish away to shining metal, weakening in the process I have decided to go back to sound de-greased grey metal and paint using a special metal primer and a silver top coat. I know the finish will eventually degrade and possibly flake off in places but on balance I think it will look better and protect for a good many years.
     
    paradox likes this.

  4. It would have been nice to celebrate the solstice at the stones but its a very long drive from me and ive normal life stuff to attend to here.

    The corrosive coating the alloy forms is actually a protective layer that prevents it corroding further
    They do look good painted though i etched primed mine and used enamel paint.

    [​IMG]
     
    exuptoy and jivedubbin like this.
  5. Many thanks Paradox, I will stick to grey metal in that case and I quite like the look of yours so will probably go for grey paint as well. Have a good Christmas. Martin
     
    paradox likes this.
  6. Just a little update on gearbox stuff. I got a nice Bentley manual for Christmas and it seems to be at odds with the Haynes when it comes to refitting 3/4 synchro hub. Haynes says 1 mm groove side to face front of shaft i.e. 4th gear and Bentley says wider chamfer faces 3rd gear and guess what both groove and wide chamfer are on same side of hub!! The other issue that tickled Paradox is Flange wobble. I now read that dished washers are fitted to some boxes and Fletcher Gillett's photo shows them beneath the retaining circlip so pushing the flange onto the diff, that seems good as witness marks on my flanges show the seal to be bearing almost at the inner end of the collar. The only other ref I have seen is to "thrust washers" on a parts diagram but these are between the flange collar and diff? Grateful for any thoughts on these issues if there is anyone out there that has the knowledge.
     
  7.  
  8. Martin, is it a 3 rib box?? I have just bought a 6 rib for mine and have a 3 rib that will be going spare, and you know i'm only round the corner!!
     
    paradox likes this.
  9. Many thanks Paul, its a 3 rib 091 series CU (the 2 digits stamped on the base). I have actually just bought a secondhand T3 3 rib 091 DH series and have worked my way through PartsBase diagrams to fortunately discover that most of the bits I need are the same. I hope my optimism is rewarded when I open it up, my limited experience tells me that the 3/4 syncro hubs are a weak point and they might be no better than my originals.
    I would be grateful if you would confirm the series of your 3 rib and how much you would like for it - it might yet be an option.
    Kind regards
    Martin
     
  10. Hi, its still fitted to Desmond at the mo. When he returns in a week or two ill have a look and let you know.
     
  11. Thanks Paul, I am cracking on with my current box and the donor but might still be interested in yours if I hit any big snags. Today I stripped the DH box and found a good 3/4 syncro unit and I plan to use that hub/sleeve/keys and baulk rings as well as the final drive flanges and dished thrust washers under the flange circlips. Mine did not have these and I suspect they were a mod to reduce movement and wear on the splines and improve sealing.
    Anatomically my gearbox is currently 3 rib and gutless!! Gutless Gearbox.jpg
    I have thoroughly cleaned, degreased and sprayed with a zinc rich acrylic primer/topcoat. I am not sure of the long term durability but did test patches with 3 different primers and this one stuck much better that the others. I found wire brushing the best cleaning method, by hand and with a flexi drive using small straight wire brushes. Both boxes have good bearings and I will use the best and next week will source new seals/gaskets/circlips/synchro springs and a pinion nut. I am still looking for a loan of a VW 381/14 to torque up the nut, grateful for any offers. Martin
     
    paradox likes this.
  12. Sourcing Gearbox Spares. Slowly reassembling the 091 box with the identical DH 3/4 synchro. I have bought many of the new seals and circlips from Cool Air but in common with other dealers many parts are unavailable. I also used Trade Part Supplies (a modern VW/Audi auto factor) as I had good part nos and some bits were used in later vehicles, I bought a 1 sq M sheet of .025mm gasket paper for £9 which will make all the engine and gearbox gaskets plus spare. I found The Engine Shop good for the pinion ring nut and other unobtainable circlips. However, I failed to get selector rod detent springs in the UK and am being supplied by Weddle in the US via a kindly cousin to keep postage reasonable. The box had been opened since leaving the factory as evidenced by new bearings and some wear witness marks from poor adjustment so I am making a "Heath Robinson" VW 294B special tool to better adjust the selector forks and reverse relay lever. Still trying to source a VW 381/14 to torque up the Pinion Nut and may have a solution if my local VW expert can find the tool. Photos to follow.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
    paradox likes this.
  13. Gearbox update - US cousin sent 3 sets of new detent springs from Weddle, cost mainly postage £24 so I have a spare set if anyone interested. Having replaced the 3/4 synchro on the input shaft, both shafts are mounted in carrier using press to fully engage input with large ball race. The selector forks and reverse relay rail are added and the assy mounted in DiY VW 294 mainly to confirm previously recorded measurements for forks. WV 294b.jpg

    Next this assy including pinion shim is pressed into the main tunnel casing and the selector mechanism restored to the front end with its new seal, gasket and ball joint. Now the difficult bit; securing the pinion bearing nut which in effect seals the horizontal relationship between the 3 shafts and bits thereon. My quest for a local loan of a VW 381/14 failed so I paid £5 for a 110mm diameter x 65mm mild steel bar off cut and spent a couple of days with my 1960's South Bend lathe making this: VW 381.jpg

    Yes its ugly and no its not forged steel or even hardened and tempered, but it fits and will withstand 160 fpf many times before it fails, so if you need one and are anywhere near Somerset give me a call. Its easy the talk the torque but wrench the wrench well that is something else and needed a bit more DiY;
    VW 294b.jpg

    Checked all gear engagements, very positive with new springs and no hint of selector forks scraping hubs in any positions. The rest was not too difficult, insert diff, tighten up bearing cups to marks, checked backlash with pinion using a DTI and found it to on the higher end of tolerance so turned both cups about 10 degrees (backwards) to maintain bearing preload and mesh crownwheel tighter to pinion and bottom end of backlash tolerance. New O rings and seals in cups, input rear shaft and reverse drive/circlip + clutch casing fitted + tightest pair of drive flanges and dished washers under new circlips; no more 'flange wobble' Just a few more bits to add then a decision....what next engine or front beam??
     
    exuptoy, Kruger, vwbusman and 6 others like this.
  14. CRANKSHAFT DECISIONS. The Engine won and I have stripped to find it is a recon replacement with oversize bores and bearings and barrel spacers, basically seems in good condition but was leaking gas and oil and some head nuts were not that tight. A lot more cleaning and inspection needed but I do beg some advice on crankshafts as Lottie came with a new boxed reground shaft from VW Inspirations? It has been modified with welded and machined balance weights and 8 dowels but the journals are not cross-drilled so only one oil feed to each big end and the mains oilways do not have a groove on the journal face. The basic forging is probably younger as the stamped mark says 51U whereas the original was 51E. 2 cranks 2.jpg

    So I would really appreciate any input on following questions:
    Is the modified shaft a better choice despite the oilway changes? If so can I get an 8 hole normal weight flywheel or is the lightweight one really better?
    The middle main was steel backed but worn and a straight edge across mains webs allows a 0.01mm feeler under the middle, the casings have been bored out by 0.5mm already, is it time for an extra half mil to come off? If so all mains? and any issues with strength and bearing availability?
    Final questions anybody know where engine reconditioners get their new engine numbers from; the factory mark is AB but the pinned on plate is an AD? Also can anyone identify the re-conditioner? The logo shows an antelope? leaping over an engine: Recon Engine Logo070.jpg

    VMT for any advice. Martin
     

    Attached Files:

  15. That is an early 12v crankshaft, Why anyone would counterweight it is beyond me. Save it for a 1.3 engine or an early t3. The later crank is always the one to use as it has twice the number of oil galleries. o.o1mm down on the web is not good, however the way to check it is to bolt the case together with the 6 main bearing nuts and look for daylight between the main bearing webs. The engine case looks like a Vege.
     
    art b, snotty and Fish like this.
  16. keep it coming, like your motivation
     
  17. Thanks for the encouragement and Robert for your expert opinion. I will follow your advice, torque and durability will be more important than revs so the x drilled shaft is going back in. There is no touchy feely wear and the micrometer agrees so the extra oil supply has done its work. I will use your method to check the case wear but also plan to take to Arnie Levics to get an opinion on a further align-boring. Ideally only the middle main saddle needs to loose more metal, but would this be too strange especially for the supply of bearings?
    Regards all
    Martin
     
  18. You do not just align bore one saddle, it is both foolish and expensive on bearings. When you measure a worn case you will often get very odd readings. If you put a bar through a case using the same size, the straddle behind the timing gear will very often show a clean cut on both sides. This is why I always align bore every case.
     
  19. Thanks Robert for the above. The engine has taken me into "Zen and The Art of VW Restoration" territory as I am forced to question intentions. What am I doing and why? - Answer; Firstly practice good mech eng for pleasure, secondly restore to the best standard my skills allow, thirdly spend less than the restored value. Consequently, I conclude trying to make a silk purse out of this AB series crank-cased unit is much less important than replacing rust with best quality panels. Fitting a better engine later is easy compared with replacing an inferior front panel or wheel arch. In a way doing the engine before completing the bodywork is putting the horse behind the cart (VW pun intended) so rather than shelve the disassembled engine I have decided to make it the best it can be without excess expense. So far the only bit that really fails the good engineering standard is a head with a crack from plughole to inlet Vv, though both heads could do with plug helicoils. Crankshaft, barrels, pistons, rods, are good and weights well balanced for latter items. The aged crank case shows signs of a front piston failure before it was reconditioned. I was surprised that the gashes had not been blended out by the reconditioner and have now done so. So back to align boring; for this case is it needed? and will it weaken it further? One centre main shell was well worn, but when I assembled the crancase with no crankshaft, the mid main fitted and all nuts correctly torqued the shells were solidly located. Assembled and torqued again without bearings, a straight edge across saddled showed no gaps. Finally, I decided to rest my spare reground shaft on the bearingless saddles and found that a 0.05mm blade would not pass beneath anywhere, so I now feel that boring is not essential. Furthermore there is a curious witness mark that may account for the worn middle and that is the grey colour of the mating faces either side of the middle saddle, could it be that this is due to movement and or oil in a gap produced by loose case nuts?? As ever grateful for any opinions particularly on the last point.

    Testing Crankcase alignment.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    jivedubbin likes this.

Share This Page