Bus cut out twice in France - dodgy fuel, condenser or something else?

Discussion in 'Mech Tech' started by paulcalf, Aug 21, 2019.

  1. The bus did sterling work around europe - but there were a couple of 'incidents'.

    @Lasty wanted to know more - so here is a rambling description of them.

    Feel free to add any thoughts if you can be bothered, but main thing is i made it there and back safely, but with support from our great community!

    Huge thanks go to @theBusmonkey for talking to me whilst I was away and consulting with @davidoft
    Thanks to @Dicky for making sure i didn't cock up my carbs when attempting to adjust the idle speed.


    What happened :
    All was going very well in The Netherlands.
    It had run ok on some Belgian E10 fuel at 1.60euro a litre!
    Filled up with some French E5 fuel, started ok, drove a couple of miles to an american war memorial, went round that and then it sounded a bit dodgy when it started.
    Drove a few metres out of the war memorial and it cut out.
    I thought dodgy fuel. After a few minutes i started it up and gave it a massive rev which seemed to help.

    The plan was to drive carefully to somewhere more convenient to look into the matter. It seemed ok, so we decided to drive it a couple of hundred km to where my mates were in France (Which was our next destination). It drove there fine, no issues.


    Didn't drive it for a few days

    Then it started fine, drove it short distance, had a swim and lunch etc, few hours later it started fine. Drove it to supermarket, not far. inside for 20 mins max, then it sounded a bit dodgy starting, then it drove a few hundred metres and cut out. After a while it started, gave it a big rev and then drove it back to my mates 15-20km - it was fine.

    I spoke to @theBusmonkey who suggested changing fuel filter, points and condenser, he checked with @davidoft who thought points and condenser likely culprits.

    Next day my mate changed points and condenser (as he is far more skilled and quicker than me). Fuel filter proved a bit trickier to remove so we left that (it had only been changed recently).

    Started it it up fine, drove it up hill, it ran out of power and then it would not start again.

    Mates came and pushed me up hill short while until i could free wheel down the hill backwards to my mates house.

    Just about to ring the breakdown people and then realised we had not removed the clamp we had put on the fuel line. Removed the clamp, felt like idiots and then it started 2nd time.

    Then next day drove it 100's of KM.

    Idle speed seemed to be really low now.

    Few days later after an hours drive switched it off, 10 ish mins later went to try and start it and there was nothing, it wouldn't even turn over. Then i rolled it forward a few metres, then re did the immobiliser and it started fine. There is a very strong chance that this non start was simply because i hadn't done the immobiliser. It started fine again the next few times i started it.

    I adjusted the idle on the twin dellortos after consulting @Dicky, which made a positive difference.

    Kept driving it without further incident.

    It does sound different when it starts
    I've now got some uk fuel in it but haven't driven it since getting home

    So unclear exactly what caused it to cut out twice, but still drive ok when i got it going again.


    Rambling thoughts/ possibly relevant info on bus.

    It definitely feels/felt better at higher revs/speeds (could it be something to do with rubbish french fuel or blocked idle jets?)

    Perhaps i should have put higher 97 octane petrol in whilst abroad.

    I will get all the electrics checked over, points re checked and timing re done.

    Mine hasn't been modified for the hot start relay. Could that have anything to do with it?

    My Generator/alternator light only goes out when i rev it past 2500rpm when first starting it up. I know some diode or something needs replacing on the alternator, but it still seems to charge ok, could this be anything to do with it?


    Anyway the bus did sterling work round europe. Even after the two weird incidents it did start again and then drive ok, so it couldn't have been anything too bad.

    The only proper 'breakdown' if y0u can call it that was caused by operator error - leaving the fuel clamp on!

    Carrying spares really helps!
    The points and condenser that i used came with the bus when i bought it 20+ years ago.
    The condenser said west germany on it.


    I'll post a pic of the points i removed.

    Picture of bus and monument before weird cut out incident.[​IMG]
     
    scrooge95 likes this.
  2. Sticking float or maybe needle valve?

    If it is this and it does it again, give each carb a gentle rap with the handle of a screw driver or a camping mallet, if the problem goes away, then it's time for a carb service. It may well get less frequent with more driving then come back again when the van has been sitting.
     
    paulcalf likes this.
  3. That had crossed my mind.

    Do you think banging the engine lid shut could have been enough to move the sticking float/needle valve - hence why it started after id shut the engine lid?

    I'm probably due a carb service
     
  4. Yes, slamming the deck lid could free it up. One of my Dells sticks if I give it beans, reduced fuel pressure is the giveaway, gentle tap has worked so far

    If you electrics are behaving then an intermittent fuel fault seems a possibility.

    I am planning a carb rebuild over winter.
     
    paulcalf likes this.
  5. mikedjames

    mikedjames Supporter

    If your alternator is losing it, this could result in your battery not really charging .
    I had a loose wire on my alternator , the warning light would flicker dimly and after a week it wouldnt start.
    Low battery voltage may also be affecting the engine wanting to run.

    I also replaced the brushes and the alternator behaved itself for a few years...
    Before it buzzed to death from a loose pullley . Bought a better alternator for £30 at Dubfreeze 2018 complete with fan..

    But my money is on dirt in idle jets caused by touching fuel lines, this would affect the tune, the Italian tuneup might have been helped by taking off the filters and slapping your hand on the top of the carbs, increasing vacuum and possibly shaking dirt out of the jets.
    Now you are back , get a flow meter and set it up, after giving your carbs and jets a good clean.

    In the end what fixed a carburettor issue I had on an outboard motor was a blast of compressed air thorough all the passages...after an ultrasonic clean made it cleaner but did not shift big bits of grit. .
    followed by picking up the carb from the ground after it blew out of my hand..


    I ran a tank full of E85 in France a few years back during a long journey . Not a lot of difference.
    The E10 will not be an issue for a bus.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2019
  6. Thanks for the detailed reply Mike.

    Although the alternator is dodgy, it still kicks out enough charge to power the starter and the leisure batteries.

    Ill check out the carbs though. Wouldn't the little carb filters catch any dirt before they can block a jet though?

    Ill take them off and have a look what they are saying
     
  7. clamp still on the fuel - classic!!
     
    nicktuft and paulcalf like this.
  8. I was pleased we remembered before I called the breakdown people
     
    cunny44 likes this.
  9. Nothing mechanical don’t worry...... it’s France.
     
    paulcalf likes this.
  10. Sort of thing I would do. Senior moment :rolleyes:
     
    cunny44, F_Pantos and paulcalf like this.
  11. ginger ninja

    ginger ninja Supporter

    I think points close up a bit when they get hot. So if the points gap is too large it will seem cranky when cold, then as van warms up everything seems fine. Then you go to start her again and the problem returns. So changing and setting the points was probably the culprit.
    Happy days.
     
    paulcalf likes this.
  12. This is what the points looked like when removed[​IMG]
     
    theBusmonkey likes this.
  13. Carb filters looked clean as a whistle (unlike my hands).

    There was one tiny black dot on one of them.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2019
  14. mikedjames

    mikedjames Supporter

    Black bits are often rubber flakes, thing is that sometimes a piece about the size of the hole in an idle jet can find its way through.

    I found little black crumbs / balls in my float chamber yesterday that were bigger than the filter mesh and which crumbled when I poked them.. strange..almost like dirt was clumping into carb jet sized lumps..
     
    paulcalf likes this.
  15. This is the rough order I'm hoping to check stuff in/sort:

    Oil & filter change.
    Change fuel filter near gearbox.
    Valve clearances check /re set.
    Spark plugs/gap.
    Points gap etc.
    Check earths, wiring, electrics and charging output.
    Check coil and wiring, re locate to sensible normal place for ease of access. It's currently behind the fuel pump and hard to get to.
    Move filter king from fan housing to under spare wheel.
    Check mechanical fuel pump for operation.
    Engine timing check & adjust.

    Service carbs, check/clean jets.

    Alternator also needs service or new diodes or something at some point. Can alternator be removed (or these bits done) with the engine in place?

    I don't plan on attempting all of this myself.
     

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